okay this is our empathy experts or I  

 should say empathy activists circle  

 these are people who have worked are  

  working extensively on the topic of 

empathy we're taking part in an empathy 

circle here's let's get started with the 

introductions I'm Edwin Raj director the 

Center for building a culture of empathy 

so for about 14 years I've been working 

quite intensively on topic of empathy 

how do we build a more empathic Society 

interviewing hundreds of experts on the 

topic and doing all kinds of different 

projects so Martin would you like to 

introduce yourself next okay my name is 

Martin Golda I'm a mediator in British 

Columbia in Canada when I my most of my 

career was actually as an architect but 

I became a mediator in about 1996 and 

discovered that empathy was actually one 

of the central tools of conflict 

resolution and and I was woefully short 

of it I often start my lectures by 

saying that my empathy was surgically 

removed in British boarding school and 

there's a lot of truth to that so I 

developed a concept of mechanical 

empathy one might say my wife says I 

should call it prosthetic empathy for 

something you strap on if you've had 

your empathy removed you can strap on 

prosthetic empathy and in fact in terms 

of conflict resolution it actually works 

very well I would say I'm using the 

intellectual side of empathy in that I'm 

getting into content a bit here but 

anyway that's how I got into the whole 

subject of empathy and I went on a bit 

of a quest about a 15 year quest to see 

if I could find the real thing and how 

at the time I started it was generally 

thought that you know you either had it 

or you didn't and but as it turns out as 

we now know it it can be taught it can 

be acquired and I've talked to me 

PhDs with fMRI machines that confirm 

confirm that so 

that's who I am oh great thanks mentor 

work in progress 

smarten a so my name is min turd dial 

I am 54 and live in Europe although 

mixed baggage in my background I've 

lived in Canada and United States 

England France Spain Switzerland and a 

few other places have been places about 

space I was born in Belgium and today 

I'm a speaker author filmmaker and my 

last book I don't have a copy of it but 

I thought I'd drum up a digital version 

X I'm a kind of a digital geek it's 

called heart official empathy I'm just I 

don't know if you can see if there's not 

so well here's some other more or less 

blurred out anyway harder for sympathy 

putting heart into business and 

artificial intelligence and in the wake 

of that book I've been looking at 

exactly how to encode food empathy into 

businesses and into machines and like 

you March and I came into it saying well 

I I must say I previously had come 

across it as a wonderful concept running 

business in L'Oreal where I worked for 

16 years and and yet when I started to 

write the book I realized that I too had 

some deficiencies in the empathy 

compartment and and I offers and I also 

like you got very sort of focus more on 

the let's say the cognitive side of it 

rather than the emotional side which is 

something more learn about I think than 

the emotional or affective empathy 

oh great well we're gonna have some a 

chance to talk about empathy here we're 

doing an empathy circle and I'll just 

give a short introduction you both know 

how to do it but for anyone watching how 

it empathy circle works we have on our 

website we have a one-page description 

that's quite accessible so an empathy 

circle is based on mutual active 

listening so in this process one person 

speaks and they select you they're going 

to speak to and they talked about the 

topic at hand or whatever is alive for 

them whatever comes up that's you know 

kind of a burning topic on top of your 

mind or feelings you speak to the person 

you're supposed to speak to your chosen 

that person and you pause periodically 

and that the person you're speaking to 

reflects back their understanding of 

what you've said sort of recap being 

summarizing paraphrasing but just kind 

of getting the essence of what the 

speaker is saying and the intention is 

for the speaker to be heard to their 

satisfaction and the speaker will have 

six-minute turn so you can speak for you 

know six minutes on topic and then once 

you feel heard to your satisfaction at a 

time is up and you can say I feel fully 

heard then it would be the listeners 

turn to become the speaker and then 

choose someone else in the group and 

that person reflects back we go around 

for the time allotted so a couple tips 

that is the speaker you know you want to 

pause periodically so the listener can 

reflect back with their hearing the 

speakers you say and also if you're the 

listener and the speaker is kind of 

going on and on you can say you can ask 

for a pause though if you just pause let 

me reflect back because it becomes a lot 

to sort of hold you know the most if it 

becomes multiple concepts so that's 

pretty much the essence of it so in the 

as a listener active listener you're 

reflecting back the essence of what you 

hear and you're recapping and you're 

trying to avoid putting your own stuff 

and they're not putting any judgments or 

or die 

nursing or advising but just really 

trying to share what you hear the person 

say so that's the other component so 

this topic is a bit of a mecca a sort of 

a topic it's what is your experience of 

taking part in the empathy circle so you 

know what are you experiencing what 

feelings come up what insights come up 

what do you like with you not like so 

does that seem pretty clear and I'll do 

the timekeeping as well and so it's 

really about this this practice which 

you know for my years of experience I 

find this like the most sort of easy 

first step sort of gateway practice or 

trying to sort of promote it you know 

create as much information and 

experience rather as possible that's why 

works we're using the process and 

talking about it at the same time so 

with that if anybody would like to start 

you know select - you'd like to speak to 

and we can just get the ball rolling if 

you want to speak to me as a sample 

that's good - or over anybody feels 

motivated Marcin do you feel like 

jumping in well I suppose somebody has 

to do you mean as ELISA or a speaker as 

a speaker okay yes okay well mentor I 

guess I'll we're somewhat limited in our 

choices today but choose it but you can 

choose the Joker I guess at the moment I 

mean one of the things I've wrestled 

with quite a bit is in in mediations in 

conflict resolution I often run into a 

perception that any expressions of 

empathy and compassion are considered 

weaknesses to be exploited by the other 

side and I have a friend in Brussels a 

corporate lawyer and and she says 

empathy is no part of my business I it's 

just not part of my 

seen at all and yes go ahead 

so what you're saying what I hear you 

saying Martin is that in your practice 

of mediation you oftentimes come across 

the notions that empathy and or 

compassion can be scenes seen as 

weaknesses and some people will have a 

sort of a nervous reaction to it so I 

don't want any of that absolutely yeah 

and so I have an ongoing conversation 

with this particular corporate lawyer 

just because we became friends in Madrid 

the conference there and you know and 

it's not that I'm trying to persuade her 

to adopt empathy although perhaps I am 

and I'm I sort of feel like my mission 

is to try and open her eyes to and for 

me to find out from her experience you 

know does them with the impact have any 

meaning in the world that she exists 

then of you know corporate lore and and 

she does conflict resolution between 

states I guess as well she does so but 

you're sometimes feeling but not store 

whether you are there to persuade her 

about benefits or role of empathy in her 

work her work me a little bit different 

she's a lawyer and seems to be mediating 

between states right and you know she 

made the right maybe maybe empathy 

doesn't have any place in her world and 

I'm I feel a little unsure of that and 

yet you know within the other world that 

I exist in sort of more empathic world 

where everybody is just like an empathy 

guru it seems crazy to think that the 

somewhere where empathy as Paul bloom 

might say you know is there's not 

appropriate so in in your world I assume 

what you mean there's sort of your peers 

as opposed to the 

work of mediation with people who are 

upset at one another it seems that there 

many people that obviously have drunk 

the kool-aid and think empathy is the 

greatest thing and as useful for 

everybody except mr. bloom who might be 

against empathy right absolutely okay 

well that was how we doing for time 

okay okay okay so anyway that's one of 

the one of the areas that that I have 

going on the frontiers of my research 

see I like yes the other one that's 

that's really big right now for me is 

that it's not so much the empathy thing 

but it well I was really glad to see 

empathy circles and extinction rebellion 

kind of coming into some kind of 

alignment there and talking to each 

other I have a group called the final 

run which is not only individuals final 

run the period between say retirement 

and death something like that also a 

cultural violent or final run for 

Humanity is paralleling that individual 

process and and I'm not sure I mean it's 

a kind of a separate thing from empathy 

but then empathy infiltrates everything 

and the final run for a moment in our 

human culture is the dominant story oh 

you were first of all saying that this 

is this is a second big area of interest 

to suppose within empathy when you were 

excited to see how empathy circles and 

the extinction rebellion threads were 

weaved in and then you link in to that 

this notion final run whether or not 

it's the let's move it into the hospice 

you know the ACA as we move towards 

death and I suppose in stages before 

that or on a more meta cultural level 

the the end of civilization or somehow 

some of our civilizations if that's what 

I am 

that's right yes and and you know how 

might I mean Edwin has a you know very 

strong model that he would tout I think 

as as you know a sort of a solution to 

everything in some ways maybe not you 

can correct us on that later I went but 

and I wonder I wonder you know I don't 

know I you know could I go to the front 

lines 

you know what does empathy look like on 

the front lines and I I have a lot of 

kind of unknowns in my life around 

around the future unfolding and how it 

will actually hit me and how I will 

actually react in more extreme 

situations cool if I understand 

correctly you're looking at well you you 

wonder how empathy will play out at the 

front line wherever that front line 

abstract is it might seem in terms of 

the evolution of society and and where 

he in control of that and how empathy 

will play out within that you sort of 

question oh and of course the finality 

of the outcomes that might be facing in 

terms of piety yes where if you you've 

cut out a few things in that but but yes 

basically I definitely feel that you 

heard what I was saying so thank you 

very much my pleasure 

I'm assuming that you was technical 

cutouts or because I was doing 

abbreviations of your audios ranking up 

a little bit I have a Parisian Wi-Fi 

system as well yeah so Edwin listening 

let me speak to you so empathy circles 

let me start by talking about my 

experience of them and then move into 

what I think of them so my experience of 

them was that I I really felt very naive 

when I first embarked on them and as I 

started I really felt very inadequate in 

my ability to listen and I I could find 

my busy brain going haywire and and of 

course this is also at the very 

beginning connecting into the new people 

which confuses my mind so what I'm 

hearing there is that your experience 

when you're first started was one you're 

feeling a sense of inadequacy so I'm a 

bit of anxiety about that and then also 

you have a lot of new people in the 

circle there's sort of a so maybe some 

bangs you didn't say they weren't 

anxiety but may be so many anxiety 

around you know relating to the new 

people and then the in in the process of 

the very first one how I I start to be a 

little bit more 

clued in to it then then there's members 

the second empathy circle and it's a new 

set of people I'm a little acclimate 

it's the ideas and the procedures of it 

and yet I can still see my limbic brain 

coming out or at least other elements of 

my reactions that confuse confound what 

I'm hearing and all the same by the end 

I feel like I'm back in a good place 

where I am getting this and then now I'm 

where I I get go oh you're breaking up a 

little bit there you may want to pause 

your video just because your voice is 

breaking up not give you more bandwidth 

okay so do me to say I'll say what I 

heard so what I heard is like the first 

day the first circulated be had so that 

anxiety but you started getting familiar 

with the process so the second time you 

still had you know some discomfort or 

but you are getting more comfortable 

with the practice and then that's kind 

of work where I stopped the hearing was 

good to the point now that I I'm Garrett 

in from I'm dialed in from minute one 

okay so from the from the beginning 

you're you're familiar with it and when 

you get started like right now you're 

just feeling more comfortable with your 

my mind sets much more ready for having 

done several of these not only by notion 

of I have to meet Martin new person 

obviously I know you 

and and then there's the idea of that 

mind space to be present enough to 

really focus in on what's you know 

what's being said by the individuals 

okay so if you get more comfortable you 

get more kind of present to be able to 

be present with with people and now you 

feel more comfortable and more present 

an exam earns there that's right no but 

that's that's the notion right so that's 

my experience as to my opinion of them 

so as a as a technique I like a lot of 

the elements the process the notion of 

two hours and the limited number of 

people like an empathy circle with three 

for example I feel like there's there's 

more there could be more flexibility 

within that and certainly for the two 

hours on a practical level especially 

since for me it's 7 p.m. to 9 p.m. it's 

it's a whack that's that's dinner time 

you know and we live in compressed times 

so I feel like the two hours may be a 

very onerous element on an ongoing basis 

hmm so for the sort of practical aspect 

the time is is difficult I mean two 

hours for an empathy circle with busy 

lives you know is is sort of it's 

difficult and especially if it's you 

know with finding time to work for the 

people then you're doing it around 

dinnertime and so that gets like another 

complication I mean of course time is 

precious for everybody so the then the 

point becomes the usage of empathy 

circles especially in my field which is 

more in a business space and it seems 

impossible for me to use an amputee 

circle in a business environment 

especially since it feels like the real 

benefits start 

sink in only it empathy circle two or 

three the sustainable benefits the 

benefit where I feel like I'm ready I 

mean yeah so there's a with the empathy 

circle it takes time to kind of work 

your way into it into the second third 

one and then by the third time you feel 

comfortable you're ready to really get 

in deeper and that it sounds like you're 

saying that the the time aspect in a 

business would be really difficult to do 

that because you know just it takes so 

much time 

yeah that's right and if I have more 

time I'd one that was six minutes but if 

you only just finished well just the the 

final element is that I feel like the 

embassy circle is a good entree as you 

say 

yet there are going there needs to be 

others that are you know maybe 

sophisticate the elements of empathy in 

a business environment so it's not just 

listening to the words being said but it 

might be decoding the emotions and and 

everything else that goes into empathy 

so there's a to make it practical in a 

work environment you feel there needs to 

be other sort of aspects brought in for 

example how do you read feelings and or 

decode them yes I feel hurt okay 

then I'll speak to Martin yeah there is 

one thing I like the term I think though 

Stephen can be mentioned the empathy 

takes time and efficiency as machines so 

it's that notion that one thing about 

empathy is it does take time you know so 

that and I find it like with doing the 

empathy circle it usually takes about an 

hour to just through and even start 

getting you know kind of comfortable 

getting familiar with the practice and 

they're sort of like in the second hour 

where everybody is you sort of sink in 

deeper and 

that it's yes my experience okay so what 

you're saying is that yeah empathy takes 

a bit of time and Stephen Covey said 

that empathy takes time and efficiency 

as for machines and so your experience 

of the empathy circles is in that first 

hour or is where people are just kind of 

coming to grips with okay so this is 

empathy and the and the process that's 

going on and then in the second hour 

they start to okay I get it now and then 

maybe something deeper happens in that 

second balance yeah and the the practice 

is basically built is just the active 

listening a lot Carl Rogers who used 

active you really develop the practice 

within the therapeutic realm of sitting 

with an hour with the client and just 

listening to them in using active 

listening or an ethic listening so it's 

it comes from that experience and that 

practice and you know therapeutic world 

work the therapist just sits and listens 

in a non directive way just hearing the 

person who is speaking giving them space 

to share and having someone that's sort 

of accompanying them on their journey 

without trying to tell them where to go 

or what to do so one of the features of 

empathy circles comes out of the 

experience of the therapeutic movement 

and active listening Carl Rogers and 

others where you are as the chosen 

listener in the interaction you are just 

listening and paying attention and 

letting the other person feel that 

somebody is listening and somebody is 

hearing me and get to the point where 

Wow I've been heard and there's you know 

all kinds the studies that you know for 

a really good you know for a therapist 

to do for healing you know an offer 

healing that the empathy is in an ethnic 

therapist is the it's like a requirement 

the best therapists or the most empathic 

ones in terms of for for you know 

supporting people in in their healing 

and growth so in terms of the again 

coming out to the therapeutic model and 

a healing modality within an empathy 

circle the the best listeners the best 

healers other people who are most 

emphatic yeah and at least that's what 

they're the studies I've seen have been 

and then so we're trying to do is take 

it out of this therapeutic realm where 

there's you know a trained therapist and 

bring it into a mutuality 

so we're it's mutual listening something 

that anyone can do so to make it sort of 

reproducible to the to the masses so to 

speak to the white you know anybody with 

a little bit of practice do a couple 

circles watch some and then you can 

start taking part so it's something 

that's you know takes it out of the 

professional world and brings it into 

just human interactions so one of the 

things that you're trying to do with 

empathy circles is to take the healing 

and empathic mode and make it available 

to everybody so not just you don't have 

to go down to the to the therapists you 

can get together with a bunch of people 

have an empathy circle and and anybody 

can do that yeah and when I did 

something like you hear a mediator and 

so I've done mediation trainings here as 

well and from my observation if this 

mutual the mediator is sort of like 

trying to listen to and listen to the 

different parties and ethically and then 

get the parties to impact listen to each 

other it's like the core practice it 

seems to me of mediation and the epital 

the core of that mediation you know it's 

the core practice of if you had if 

there's a conflict you bring it into an 

empathy 

circle the whole practice in using 

active listed mutual active listening 

sort of unravels the Gordian can unravel 

accordion not most conflicts right 

so in paralleling empty circles to a 

practice of mediation there was a lot of 

similarities that in terms of the 

essence of a mediation and conflict 

dealing with conflict is to empathically 

go to each party and have each party 

feel heard you know only by the mediator 

but also by each other yeah kind of ten 

more to say but my time is not my field 

okay great 

well maybe I'll talk back to you then 

okay on this one you know yeah I really 

liked what mentor was saying I mean 

jumping straight into the the reason for 

this I mean focusing on you know our 

reaction to empty circles and and how we 

have it have it have experienced them I 

think you know for me I've often said 

that I love the fact that you have those 

two weights that you sometimes lift up 

behind you and say it's all about the 

practice practice practice you know you 

just keep exercising those empathic 

muscles and they get stronger and 

stronger 

the I think for me that the whole I mean 

the listening is is the key really and 

and sometimes it's pretty difficult you 

know to actually listen to people and to 

actually hear what they're saying 

sometimes it's it's so page and and and 

then my mind wanders or you know and I'm 

not focused and I think the empathy 

circle for me has been a really good 

it's like an exercise it is like this 

you know there's this so what you're 

speaking to is the exercise it's a it's 

a it's an exercising and a practising of 

it it's analogous that I can use that 

metaphor 

to that story and you know shows the 

weights and so you do see it as a as a 

practice and it sounds like sometimes 

when you're listening to people it's 

clear what they're saying and other 

kinds of sort of opaque to so you could 

have different qualities of hearing 

people yes absolutely and and so my 

experience at the empty circles has 

always been that Wow you know and as you 

know sometimes I found it quite hard 

quite difficult and and then at other 

times it just flows and so that probably 

is the you know the familiarity again 

that that meant to talk about of doing 

it two or three times and and eventually 

it flows a lot more easily and yeah so 

sometimes you're noticing the different 

qualities of it that sometimes when 

you're taking part it's like it's it's 

difficult and other times it flows and 

perhaps part of the flow is just doing 

it more yes and and then the other thing 

that mentor was talking about there too 

was the you know what he thought of it 

and what he thought of the empathy 

circles and so I was just thinking about 

that a little bit I mean usually when I 

finish one I'm thinking wow that that is 

a really good technology I really like 

that and it is very simple as you 

mentioned - very similar as you 

mentioned to some of the situations 

might be in a mediation it's I you know 

there is a part of the practitioners and 

you know I've certainly been there where 

you want to react to something to what 

somebody else is saying you know as 

opposed to just telling them what they 

said and I think the the discipline of 

you know going through that to just 

reflecting what they've said it is one 

of the powerful things and I've just I'm 

just thinking about example the other 

day on the climate change thing where 

you know one 

participants hmm really really very very 

different views about that and it was 

very hard not to react to some of those 

years hmm 

so again made part of the practice is 

that like when you're listening to 

someone you find that you know you're 

wanting to react to them like they say 

something you want to immediately react 

and they're sort of in the practice 

you're only having to listen so it's a 

good practice just to listen and notice 

actually an example you know in the 

climate change where somebody was saying 

something felt which may be sort of 

outrageous you just really wanted to 

react to it we had to sort of hold back 

and just listen yes yes and so you know 

when I you know think of you know you're 

moving the empathy circle into 

contentious realms you know with the the 

protesters at Berkeley or or or the 

climate change thing where you really 

get people on on with different views a 

you know I think for a long time I 

wondered how useful is it going to be 

you know how people will people play the 

game you know will they abide by the 

rules and you know no I just want to 

shout you down and and I I guess I'd be 

interested in hearing no stories more 

extreme situations - yeah so you're 

you're wondering like in really 

contentious situations with people doing 

empathy circles would they stay with the 

practice and the process so they just 

you know start yelling at each other and 

you're kind of interested in hearing 

like stories about it and so I just kind 

of curious about that yeah yeah no I 

shouldn't hearing some of your views on 

that I don't know if I feel fully hurt 

either okay okay no I'm I I mean how 

could I not feel fully heard talking to 

you hey you feel full you're like me we 

listening to you 

okay then I'll speak to thanks major and 

you meet it so I saw had my video off I 

suppose I could do it when I'm not 

speaking but in this case to keep it 

good 

I need to get so okay let's see wow that 

was great so yeah there's some things 

coming up one thing sort of responding 

to mentor you're saying that you know 

about the empathy circle being sort of a 

there needs to be more in business I do 

see it as the empathy circle is like a 

first step but it's like a really 

important first step and it's like and 

like with the practice it's just like we 

I feel like you need to practice it you 

need to get really comfortable with it 

just like when you're getting more and 

more comfortable with the mentor that 

you know if you just keep doing it and 

doing it get more and more that comfort 

kind of gets deeper and deeper ingrained 

and I think that's a real that's what 

what the practice of it is is that that 

getting really really comfortable with 

the practice so while I had mentioned I 

needed a mentor had mentioned more 

complexity maybe other elements 

necessary you reiterate it is a first 

place first base and yet really 

fundamental element that needs to be 

practiced on a ray or an iterative basis 

yeah yeah and it's something that we can 

teach every person in the world to 

become a facilitator it's within it's 

sort of doable in terms of like you know 

everyone could learn the practice and I 

think it would be like a first it'd be 

sort of like a first step momentum to 

get people to go down that path the 

empathy path so if we can necessarily my 

sort of goal is around the empathy 

circle really to sort of mass-produce it 

and then make it something that's just 

accessible for everyone to do because 

people can get a lot of benefits out of 

this you get a lot a huge amount of 

payoff then 

fits just with this first basic practice 

yes so you're looking at the empathy 

circle as a way to democratize the 

notions and you see it as being 

something that many people could 

facilitate once you've done it a few 

times you can get the process and you 

could make it therefore easier more 

accessible to many more people 

yeah for example in my family this 

Sunday we're going to be doing a family 

empathy circle and we just did one you 

know a month and a half ago so we have 

this issue in the family that the last 

one was four hours it will probably go 

another four or five hours this Sunday 

so we get the family together and we you 

know just kind of talk about this this 

this family issue 

and it really helps you know the family 

members have become very trusting and 

the practice things that would have 

blown up before you know it's like 

here's a oh if I just stick with this 

practice and I'll be heard we'll be able 

to work things through so that's just 

something I can see every in any family 

you know using this practice you know 

quite quickly and you can really you 

know get a lot of benefits in your 

family or you know with close 

relationships in terms of having this 

tool to work out issues so you've used 

heavily circle within your family and 

articulated around one specific issue 

it went on for four hours and then 

you're gonna do another one and you can 

see it going on same amount of time in 

the process it's the 

trust as anybody feels oh I'm beginning 

to get it and I know that I at least 

will have my chance to be heard yep so 

it is yeah it is that trust building 

aspect and and it's also a sort of a 

fallback position that you can get 

really good into practice and then you 

can sort of let go of it than just 

dialogue you know you can just turn into 

normal regular dialogue but then 

dialogue can break down right it's like 

just kind of using typical dialogue 

breaks down you say oh it's broken down 

this is our fallback position is the 

empathy circle so if it's sort of like a 

safety net in terms of conflict that 

okay we can just chat it's fine and 

invariably things break down somebody 

says something somebody gets pissed off 

the tensions start rising you say up 

let's go back to the fantastic listening 

you know mutual empathic listening and 

then you kind of build up trust and you 

can let go of it again so in the nature 

of a conversation your family the 

empathy circles you might switch off the 

empathy circle technical elements so 

move into a more natural organic 

conversation you know but as soon as the 

conversation and then starts wobbling 

and issues start returning back into the 

conversation you can circle back and use 

the embassy empathy circle to normalize 

maybe safety at you word used allow us 

to come back to some kind of safer space 

and then continue on exactly I still 

fully heard thank you my pleasure 

so let me for the sake of keeping the 

rhythm different I don't know I'm going 

to speak back to you add when so 

I have my let's say my angle of course 

is very much my business filter and I 

also have this AI filter and I have 

explored how machines could detect 

empathy and that's sort of where my 

baggage is when I come into this you 

have two areas that you're focusing on 

is is the business empathy in business 

and empathy and AI so they're sort like 

filters or baggage that you're bringing 

with you absolutely as opposed to 

mediation or let's say family issues and 

as such I'm quite interested in in 

understanding and building up context 

call it data points in AI and reading 

emotions such as as they are expressed 

through so many different ways including 

voice facial expressions heartbeats body 

language and as a result I'm curious to 

see how empathy circles could evolve to 

allow us to pick up on these other 

elements which are not I would say 

intrinsic to the notion of strict 

listening so you're looking at empathy 

within AI as you know how do you read 

the body language the tone of voice and 

create these different data points for 

artificial intelligence and you're just 

wondering how how the empathy circle 

could sort of fit into to that framework 

those AI and the technical aspect of the 

computer aspirant the yes for it for 

example at this very moment being Meza 

you are only listening to my 

you have no indication as to whether I'm 

standing up I'm frowning and being 

cynical sarcastic or whatever and 

therefore you are focused on one single 

signal which is my the words coming out 

of my mouth 

and the intonation that I have and 

that's one form of listening but I could 

very well be spinning a story and inside 

by you crossed arms showing very 

different type of body language but 

that's not picked up in the empathy 

circle as it sits so right now I'm only 

hearing your voice and the intonation 

and your body language could be 

something totally different so you're 

we're only picking up serve lunch at a 

channel of your expression versus you 

know the the physical how you're 

physically looking if it's crossed arm 

or you know whatever and I find I find 

that notion of context and emotion 

reading necessarily important in 

building up cognitive empathy I leave 

you to swallow that one so it's 

important so it's important to have all 

those sort of data points is different 

for building cognitive empathy yes 

and so yes if it sport it hard to hear 

I'm sorry about that but the the other 

zone of interest from for me is that a 

this format is fungible so we can use it 

for families and mediation but it 

strikes me that the question we're gonna 

debate is is structure is is structuring 

so that if we're in a mediating or 

conflictual environment the nature of 

our ability to stick with that 

constrained question or issue is deeply 

important and and the ability for the 

moderator to keep us focused on that 

specific zone that we've mutually agreed 

to an advance so one aspect of a 

facilitator like or team leader whatever 

keep people on topic instead of it kind 

of drifting all over the place is that 

yes it's interesting that you have to 

struggle with the technical elements of 

listening as well sorry about that 

but I so my point was first there's the 

complexity of listening and reading 

emotions that go beyond reformulating 

the words I'm listening to a larger z' 

and to the nature of the issue that 

we're discussing for example people you 

know very well it's oftentimes much 

harder to be empathic with them than it 

is with a person you're sitting beside 

on an airplane meeting for the first 

time ok so there's there's sort of the 

understanding part it seems to be 

important that something you can have 

really good understanding for someone 

who you don't know personally you know 

they've got an airplane we that you 

could have deep understanding with them 

it may be more difficult 

with your family member yeah or issues 

with more baggage more babies so I I 

just was thinking in the empathy circle 

the way I'm approaching this is layering 

in these two other areas one is the 

different emotional readings and context 

data points are ultimately going to be 

necessary for artificial intelligence 

and two to think about the spectrum of 

of people and issues that we're looking 

at and I think there's a modularity that 

could help us to make empathy circles 

more efficient not necessarily in time 

but specific to what we're trying to 

achieve okay so you're saying that the 

empathy circle could be developed to 

make it more effective in terms of the 

outcome that's desired yes keeps coming 

to me is so the building on the empathy 

in the empathy circle how did it sort of 

expand it like I just keep focusing on 

this first step but there is another 

step that I think would be important 

which is the the feeling part is it as a 

speaker you know we can deepen the 

empathy circle by the speaker sharing 

more of their feelings I could share 

more of my felt experience right now 

that would kind of contribute to the 

deepening the emotional deepening of 

this so the speaker can do something to 

speak more from their emotional physical 

space right so in this first stage of 

the empty circle you kind of 

where we focus on the the back and forth 

the the act of the reflective listening 

you're looking to move that into perhaps 

the emotional level so what can the 

speaker do in telling their story that 

carries more emotion and can that be 

reflected back by the listener yeah 

and it's actually easier for the 

listener to reflect back feelings and 

complex you know concepts I've noticed - 

uh-huh 

so you see yeah so for the listener to 

reflect back feelings they yes they I 

can immediately see that sorry as 

opposed to from sometimes we get into 

some very complex wordy things and the 

listener has a hard time yeah so this 

was actually already with Crowell Rogers 

and his grad students because there's a 

whole field of how to take it to the 

next step and all these different grad 

students of Carl Rogers kind of took it 

off in all kinds of different directions 

and the one was Jean gentleman one of 

his grad students who said who are the 

people in therapy who are having the 

most growth kind of like emotional you 

know working through their problems and 

what is it that's making them more 

successful and from his studies it was 

the people who spoke about their felt 

experience in the moment and shared 

their felt experience in the moment had 

the most growth so he developed the 

whole practice called focusing which I 

would call self empathy is to notice 

your own felt experience in the moment 

and and share that and then have someone 

be accompanying you with empathic 

listening so that would be a step you 

know another step to deepening the 

practice is for the speaker to get 

really good at just sharing how they 

feel yeah I don't I feel in them in the 

moment you know I feel pretty excited 

about the topic here I feel kind of 

relaxed and spacious I feel kind of a 

sense of warmth you know towards you 

know both of you for kind of exploring 

this topic so that's just some of it I 

feel sort of yeah sort of a spaciousness 

okay here he has to be so so from Carl 

Rogers working and the various students 

who went off and explored his work more 

deeply one of the subjects was who's 

getting the best results and and how is 

that happening and it was discovered by 

one of his students I don't know the 

name gene gentleman who discovered that 

the people who shared more of their 

emotional states in the moment tended to 

get the better results and so you're 

thinking if we apply this to empty 

circles where people are encouraged 

perhaps to to share more of how they're 

actually feeling in the moment at a very 

emotional level that might be a place 

for empathy circles to explore some new 

territory yeah that would be a next step 

and I shared some of my experience too 

so that was just as an example how you 

felt very expansive and whether some 

other ones you know just excited I did 

yep and okay I know there's things yeah 

and then you then you thank just for 

sharing this experience yeah I was 

sharing my gratitude I felt I feel 

gratitude that you're here you know 

talking about this and exploring this 

together so I do feel gratitude for your 

participation okay you feel gratitude 

yeah the other thing about deed I've 

been Dean you know just recently in the 

last year it's just been sort of an 

explosion of talk about empathy and 

artificial intelligence and the one 

concern I have is that it's like here's 

this simple practice of just doing 

empathic listening but people want to go 

off and do all this complicated computer 

stuff you know and I would like to see 

them first master this simple practical 

step on all those people all those 

article 

all those writers that I see can you 

just learn and practice something that's 

sort of accessible and I've been I've 

talked to artificial intelligence people 

in Eric just seems like oh yes kind of a 

sales 

I'm not saying as for the mentor but 

this is like it's a sales job and it's 

like but they couldn't even do a 

empathic listening you know what I mean 

it's I get it I get a little concerned 

about that that it's becomes like is is 

hot topic but you know how about 

starting with just the you know have all 

those folks who are studying artificial 

intelligence just learn to do an empathy 

circle to begin with and then built it 

would actually see it would actually 

help in the development of the 

artificial intelligence I think to have 

those deeper personal experiences okay 

so with the the fact that you know in 

the AI well the exploration of ethics 

and empathy is a really hot topic you're 

feeling that perhaps all these people 

who are studying that could use an 

empathy circle or two to just come to 

the basics oh yeah learning some of 

those skills on the front lines of their 

lives and it would improve their there's 

this the work that they're doing I think 

right and so then they could take that 

experience and start applying that in 

the work they're doing in AI yeah I 

thought heard thank you okay thank you 

okay well I'll just keep moving around 

the circle then and and down to your 

mentor and I'll stop I'll stop my video 

well no you don't have to while you're 

listening if you like actually they're 

leaving the problem Oh eNOS it is really 

nice just wish to see you as opposed to 

the light and of some some code across 

there that comes when you're not there 

if you start breaking up I'll let you 

know you can see I have a pit behind me 

here that's France up there au revoir 

save you know give you some okay it's 

the waterways we have a boat in 

nice so okay I am those were some real I 

mean this is just so exciting I I am 

think what it's excited to be here I 

must say you know and it's and it's 

funny because it is such a simple 

practice and yet within that simple 

practice there are like so many embedded 

skills and that make me happy to be here 

and then and then you know with meeting 

you mentor here too is also extremely 

exciting to you know to to hear such a 

if I might say such an intellect you 

know talking is just always really 

really exciting so thank you for being 

here well I shake my head in tote I I 

shake my head in total judgment try to 

try to refuse the judgment that you're 

making 

maybe but anyway that was service I'm 

not sure what sort of sense of humor 

that was but anyway what you are 

experiencing is excitement of how the 

amp can you hear me okay yep how the 

empathy circle is a seemingly simple 

exercise but it it very quickly explodes 

into many more different pieces that are 

interestingly interesting in their own 

elements and anyway you're enjoying the 

experience of this empathy circle yes 

very much thank you and and where could 

it go I mean this this AI thing is as 

Edwin was saying it's obviously very big 

and obviously you're very much into it 

and I even had a little conversation 

with aggregate IQ about it the other day 

but as being a Victoria company you know 

here in Canada but 

it's you know whenever I introduce the 

concept of you know empathy into the AI 

conversation there are a lot of head 

shakers you know if you know you have 

the old classic of the automated car and 

the old lady and the kids on the 

crosswalk you know and how does the AI 

make that kind of decision 

and then it's becoming much more you 

know it's moved to so much more complex 

levels now so you're and you're talking 

about the body language and and all the 

features that you know facial 

recognition software can detect about 

speakers as being part of that input 

it's at the moment it's just like a huge 

humble jumble and you know in my mind 

it's definitely not organized and just 

to finish I'd say there's a really very 

funny video of a guy and and his 

daughter or a little kid like a 

one-year-old at 1:51 and a half year old 

kid talking and and the kid is going 

well or light or light rather and the 

data all right oh yeah wahhhh 

and the king of madra and they have this 

long conversation with absolutely no 

worse than this like this it's you'd 

swear they were talking and they are 

they are talking there's definitely a 

conversation happening there between 

them with this this child language what 

would a I make of that I wonder so a lot 

to digest so looking at empathy in 

artificial intelligence which is a 

burgeoning area the complexities within 

it let's say we're far from convincing 

you of the possibilities or maybe 

probabilities of it anyway within 

artificial intelligence and you're 

useful you know say 

on the fence as to its possibility and 

you you reference the idea of of all the 

other elements to go into a conversation 

including nonverbal communication 

because in that case you have a father 

and a child who aren't verbalizing words 

that are cognitively recognizable but 

still are conversing and probably 

there's some sort of empathy and emotion 

going on there and what would a machine 

think about that absolutely yeah I think 

it's not so much that I'm not convinced 

that this is a part that we or almost a 

rabbit hole that we're going down it's 

more that people in in conversations 

that I'm with are not convinced about it 

I I think I'm you know I would certainly 

be happy to be on the frontline of 

working with you know artificial 

intelligence people on some of those 

issues because I it is fascinating 

although I confess that when I was 

saying that I do feel lost I feel very 

lost in that in that in those realms so 

you you come across many people who are 

do potata v' about the idea of empathy 

and AI 

you're excited about it yet it's let's 

say a vast if not confusing topic 

absolutely yeah 

so where so is there someplace I empty 

circles as as I've been saying it's this 

simple technology it's an it's like an 

intro and introductive technology how 

would how would empty circles fit into 

you know this burgeoning field of AI 

empathy and AI and you know I I mean I 

guess one tends to have mixed feelings 

about the whole world of AI but you know 

you can have mixed feelings about 

anything and it still comes rolling down 

the pike a so 

you you sort of have to just kind of 

take it on as it comes no so we're not 

sure about the possibilities of empathy 

in AI but it does seem let's say more 

likely to be a in our future and then 

the question is how do we take it on and 

it's going to be every each one to their 

own because everything can be good or 

bad it depends how you use it if I can 

reformulate yes yes there's certainly in 

essence yeah that's - I often say to 

people you know you can build a house 

with a hammer or you can hit somebody 

over the head 

so say okay well no I feel heard on 

heard on that thank you lovely so I'm 

gonna come back at you Martin with video 

in queue you can raise your finger or if 

you need me to kill the video that way 

you can practice just audio so empathy 

circles as a method have 

definitely improve my understanding of 

listening skills and I understand their 

benefit as an introductory element i yet 

need to figure out step two step three 

because change in a in an organization 

typically can't just stay at the 

listening space for example at the 

conclusion of every empathy circle the 

the business minded individual want to 

know all right what do we what do we 

agree on we agreed on we might be better 

listeners okay so the empty circles for 

you have have definitely increased your 

appreciation and abilities perhaps even 

in in listening and how do we move that 

into the next step in fact what is the 

next step of that process because within 

you mentioned the business context for 

instance you would come to the end of an 

empathy circle and people would want 

some answers they want it laid down okay 

what did we decide you know what is that 

and and is that a piece of empty circles 

that needs to be developed or just like 

in presumably in mediation you you or 

the issue that's at hand we could talk 

about an issue that's non contentious 

and we have a nice time but nice times 

to forget a word in a business 

environment about that kind of need to 

have a an objective and a resolution and 

if you have mediation you kind of want a 

solution to the issue that you're 

mediating around and therefore as a 

judge in a courtroom will decide there 

is a decision or or some resolution and 

even the expression of the resolution 

can it by itself be contentious right so 

with the empathy circles I mean you 

still or rather with a mediation moving 

into that kind of model as you come to 

the end of the mediation there is a 

decision needed or an outcome that is 

desired and by the parties and how do 

you how do you how do you bring that 

into the empathy circle context did I 

get that right that's right because 

ultimately in a courtroom typically 

there's a judge which with a gavel that 

bang and says the decision worded 

hopefully with some empathy according to 

the loser in the winner or whatever yes 

so in a business environment whether 

with forgetting mediation we might be 

talking about an issue you will use the 

empathy circle as a format to resolve or 

improve our abilities to work together 

because maybe as a team we stopped 

working functioning well 

and as you maybe a little bit what 

Edwin's had before is if you move into 

the organic form of life where we 

converse in a natural way it can become 

a method of of coming back to so it 

almost feels like that might be an 

interesting area to formalize moving 

from empathy circle organic conversation 

back to empathy circle and and how that 

process could be more formalized in its 

way back into a work environment okay 

okay interesting idea so so because the 

there was a desire in many of the 

situations where the empty circles might 

be introduced as as a problem-solving 

technique but there was a desire for 

some kind of outcome and how one of the 

processes that might achieve getting to 

that outcome would be to allow the 

empathy circle to move into a more 

natural dialogue until its needs through 

until it goes off the rails or something 

like that and then has a there's a 

process a formal process to take it back 

into the empathy circle again and so you 

would have this natural mechanism to go 

into dialogue and then back into the 

empty set empathy circle I feel heard 

that I feel that that could be really 

interesting in a work environment and I 

would I would want to give it all but I 

would agree that that would need at 

least two hours because you need to sort 

of exercise empathy circle Ness then 

move into conversation honest and then 

see how it wobbles and then bring back 

empathy circle miss in a natural way 

such that it 

presents how we are in real life because 

that's the issue is you move away from 

the two hours into the other 22 and it's 

and and what we need is that to exist in 

the 22 mm-hmm okay a little reluctant to 

give up your objection to the two hour 

time frame however within with these 

added mechanisms of moving into natural 

speech and then back into empathy circle 

mode you can see that two hours will 

probably be sort of a minimum time for 

that but and and and and that's 

definitely an area in your view that is 

worth exploring in a in a formal way 

thank you March and I feel hurt okay 

you're welcome thank you 

okay well I guess I'll go on around the 

circle then to a way listening I I you 

know there is a natural part of me I 

find in the empathy circles and then 

other people too I'm sure that 

continually wants to break into that 

normal dialogue mode and you know I've 

been in many situations where a very 

structured environment has made that 

break into a natural and and sometimes 

well but more often in my world not well 

it the structure of mediations which 

have some similarities to this you know 

if you just kind of let it go ragged it 

can break apart pretty quick and and you 

know you end up with everybody shouting 

and then you got to kind of bring the 

whole thing back to square one and start 

again sometimes it's good so 

occasionally you know some people 

sometimes people just like to get you 

know they got to get the steam out 

sometimes you just got a loan go 

you know have a big dump and get it all 

out and then you wait until all that's 

done and then you kind of move in to a 

more structured approach to a solution 

hmm so it sounds like there's two parts 

that one is in the in the practice we've 

been doing now you've been feeling like 

you're wanting to just start speaking so 

it kind of a ten desire to just kind of 

go into the whatever's on your mind how 

to respond and then you're just noticing 

that as well as your then you're looking 

at with in mediation how does that have 

you seen that work where you know you 

have the note the structure and then 

sort of no structure by just doing 

whatever you're reacting however they 

want and sometimes just have to let 

people react so they can express all 

those pent-up frustrations and then you 

can go to the structure so you're just 

sort of exploring the relationship of 

that structure and so not having that 

structure right absolutely I'm just 

wondering whether it's you know whether 

we should almost give it a whirl you 

know give it a try 

whether we should so what would that 

even look like I you know having been in 

empathy circles now I don't even know I 

don't even know how that would work 

because usually it involves you know 

somebody's speaking somebody else 

speaking and then somebody else coming 

in and I don't even know how it would 

how you would break into that and break 

out out of them so kind of moving from 

the structured process into dialogue and 

then back into it like Minter was 

talking about as well you're not quite 

you're not sure like how that practice 

was would work even may be thinking of 

suggesting it here and how could we just 

go into you know dialogue without you 

know the practice process the structure 

right right so and you know within that 

dialogue mode it would be the sort of 

thing where I would or one of us would 

ask a question and then somebody would 

answer questions so I might ask you a 

question within the development of 

empathy circles to sort of 

true or or what do they say now dot 2 or 

something like that 

empathy circles I might say well what 

are your ideas on that ed what have you 

got in mind and then you would you know 

say well actually this is what I've got 

in mind and oh that and then Minda would 

say oh well that's really how about this 

question so I guess you get into this 

kind of question and answer exploration 

around the group there's some maybe 

there's some little kind of structural 

you may maybe they are in fact other 

structures that are as highly 

disciplined as this one but are just a 

bit different mm-hmm so there could be 

you're just saying how you can transfer 

transfer from this structure to another 

structure and they everything is the 

structure I guess in that sense there's 

another structure but how do you move 

from one structure to the other which 

has different you know qualities and 

nature to it it's kind of thinking 

different rules like how do you shift 

between these structures yeah yeah and 

then as soon as you as soon as you relax 

the rules or not relaxed but shift to a 

different set of rules it also creates 

license for people to behave in 

different ways 

[Music] 

oh that rule doesn't apply anymore now I 

can do this yeah yeah yeah so when you 

shift the rules you can act differently 

and behave differently and more and I 

must say one of the things I like about 

the empty circles is is the rigid 

structure I I find and I'm really 

surprised that people go along with it 

but maybe the people who don't want to 

go along with it never show up that's 

why you have a problem getting a right 

wingers in your left right conversations 

you know because this it's maybe it's 

too tight for them or something I don't 

know so there's a little surprise like 

here's this rigid structure and surprise 

that people like go along with it you're 

just kind of exploring like well maybe 

some people just don't want to take part 

in that rig destruction they just 

wouldn't show up and maybe the right is 

medical writers like that you see that's 

that's so excellent I was trying to 

trick you there I was I was trucking I 

was trying to get you to comment back on 

what I would say as opposed to just 

reflecting it this is a little trick 

yours like really let's get see if a 

word would respond back and you know 

it's just just reflected and there you 

go well thank you very much I feel good 

okay speak to Mincher then yeah the 

whole notion of a I assisted empathy 

circle sounds pretty good it's like 

there's the structure of the empathy 

circle and it could be sort of assisted 

with AI right there could be a it's tool 

set or software or something that kind 

of helps with the with the empathy 

circle practice I'm not quite sure what 

that would be I might actually have some 

ideas but this the idea of it's sort of 

a tool set in a sense we had a little 

bit assistive as we're recording this 

right we have technology that is 

recording the empathy circle so it's 

sort of like technology assisted empathy 

circle that we have here since we're in 

different parts of the world on top of 

it so we already have a little bit of a 

so there's an offer 

sorry yes there could there could be an 

opportunity for AI to augment at the 

empathy circle although you have yes my 

ideas but it's still let's say embryonic 

as to how that would work but it might 

be a layer on top of our technologically 

enhanced anyway because we already be 

doing video via remote empathy circles 

yeah I had talked with someone from 

Skype there was an engineer there he 

contacted me and he was interested in 

empathy and he was gonna start working 

on a project on it and then we just had 

a discussion about the empathy circle 

and he started coming up with all kinds 

of ideas he had like all kinds of you 

know software that I'm not familiar with 

but it has a lot of logic and 

and when I told him about feelings and 

needs as his part of the empathy circle 

process he got really excited because he 

saw a feedback loop that could be it if 

you have a feedback loop within within a 

process you can keep learning because 

you're you have something to test 

against and then so yeah and also yes if 

there were unable to tag for feelings 

and needs that could according to the 

sub-basement Microsoft guy or Skype guy 

helped to create a feedback loop so we 

would integrate learning directly into 

the process yeah and he had all kinds of 

off-the-shelf you know tool sets that 

could be brought to bear but then he you 

know he got pulled off on to another job 

and that kind of got dropped 

unfortunately I think that could have 

been really powerful I think that you 

know like Microsoft with Skype or you 

know zoom or Facebook they could be 

using this process like for what they're 

doing they have all kinds of conflict 

you know they're they're defunding 

people YouTube as well be monetizing 

them kicking them off their platforms it 

could be do their willingness to do an 

empathy circle could be part of the 

practice for conflict resolution so 

there's a huge amount of technology that 

could be brought into into these 

platforms you know using empathic 

listening then assisted tools right 

artificial intelligence technology tools 

to assist these dialogues so there's a 

an opportunity even within these video 

platforms to consider empathy circles as 

a one of the conduits for helping 

resolve some of the conflicts that we 

have for example D monetizing kicking 

people off YouTube because of something 

that they have said or shared and 

and we could use empathy circles to 

resolve those type of conflicts even 

within a zoom or a YouTube or Skype yeah 

like they could have they said of kicked 

off the guy from Infowars 

his name right now the you know he was 

kicked off of YouTube and what if they 

would have said well if you want to stay 

on our platform you have to do an 

empathy circle with the family members 

from Newtown who you're like you know 

really attacking or you know criticizing 

and saying that well maybe that's just 

all made up those shootings so there 

could have been something with sort of a 

mediation and there's all kinds of 

opportunities like that they could have 

it the political left is trying to be 

fun you know kick off the right and 

they're kritis you know they're doing 

stuff with YouTube saying oh these are 

terrible people kick them off they kick 

them off and then left right is all 

pissed off and there could have been 

something you know there could be this 

could be a mediation that they could 

sort of support between the sides right 

so in the case of the guy from info 

world being kicked off for presumably 

saying something negative to the people 

from Newtown for the shooting yeah maybe 

they could have proposed rather than 

kicking him off as a sort of unilateral 

decision come back and say listen if 

you'd like to stay on keep being 

monetized this is the price you have to 

pay and go do an empathy circle with the 

people you slagged off yeah alex jones 

for exact knows his names that's right 

all right so this about this a feedback 

loop that is again the work of marshall 

rosenberg's 

who was a grad student of power rogers 

that's why I just see Carl Rogers just 

set this you know foundational empathic 

listening is this foundational practice 

and it's gone in so many if you look at 

it's gone so many different directions 

have been built on this one kernel of 

the practice and Marshall Rosenberg 

insight was well there's these feelings 

just like Jean gentleman said but behind 

feelings like anger you know sadness 

there's feelings of that people are 

desiring if they're angry they're 

desiring respect or so the feeling of 

respect or something so it's it's kind 

of mapping out the territory of feeling 

the world of feelings right it's like 

there's how does how do these feelings 

relate to each other what's behind 

feelings and so that's that aspect so 

that that was another piece in terms of 

the feedback loop of the the needs that 

people have you know the desired 

feelings that they have some ways one 

throw that in I see you're interested in 

looking at the the ways we could create 

feedback loops and and how Rogers 

approached the therapy listening with 

Armstrong was more the learnings you can 

have outside of just the listening 

element and it was Marshall Rosenberg 

and nonviolent communication that was 

sort of he developed that practice yeah 

Rosenberg nonviolent communication 

Armstrong don't worry I got that one 

from the busyness in the mind but anyway 

the idea of being able to integrate 

feedback loops which could technology 

could help by the way of course in 

introduced into the empathy circles 

exactly I feel very heard thank you so I 

am excited by the idea of a layer of 

artificial oh yeah whom I speak Martin 

okay 

about the process getting natural on you 

so I am interested and excited by the 

idea of artificial intelligence being a 

layer on empathy circles as some or many 

people start talking about AI as 

augmenting intelligence 

or assisting our intelligence as opposed 

to being a autonomous intelligence so 

you're excited about the link between AI 

and empathy where AI comes in not as an 

autonomous force which is what a lot of 

people think of when they think of it 

but as an augmenting force so it it 

helps the process and I think it's worth 

mentioning the original ki was a machine 

with the name Eliza and in the 1960s 

Eliza was essentially a reef formulator 

so the original AI machine eliezer in 

the 60s was a reformulate er I don't 

know what a rimmed Allies I will I will 

explain so he Eliza was able to to 

reformulate what she heard from the 

person of course it was through text and 

it turned out that the people in the 

office where Eliza was invented wanted 

to spend hours with Eliza because 

fundamentally they felt more heard by 

her than their peers or their friends so 

Eliza back in that period would 

reformulate the whatever was put in by 

text and feed it back out again and the 

people who were working with Eliza 

actually felt more heard by Eliza than 

they did by their peers who have when 

they would feedback what they thought 

they said so Eliza gave an accurate 

reformulation of what the person has 

said it wasn't necessarily accurate for 

what they appreciated was the endless 

time that Eliza was prepared to 

do the listening per the issue of time 

efficiencies that we have today and the 

the infinite memory and the infinite 

time if you will of a computer does 

represent at the one hand a benefit and 

that the other hand a threat to our 

humanity if we don't realize that we 

should be more empathic as individuals 

so the facts and what they appreciated 

most was the fact that Eliza didn't have 

any time constraints they can sit and 

talk to Eliza for as long as they liked 

and Eliza wasn't going anywhere 

whereas a human in that situation might 

be keep looking at their watch and and 

want to be out of there so they'd 

appreciate at the time that Eliza was 

willing to spend with them yes 

so I also my final thought that I had 

brought to the table before the empathy 

circle about empathy circles so meta was 

doing it in person and my own experience 

to the date has been in the video format 

where technology sometimes gets in the 

way as we've experienced in this case 

yet I have done now three smaller 

sessions that are in front of people in 

in conferences where I have three people 

doing with in with not six minutes but 

one or two minutes 

empathy moments and and the experience 

of those individuals in just a few 

minutes inevitably illuminates 

lightbulbs in their minds and sparks 

tremendous reactions from the 

individuals in the room 

you've been you know within the 

technological world which is what we 

now and technology can get in the way 

sometimes at the communication that's 

happening so in the face-to-face 

empathy circles and you've been doing 

some of these in conferences with a two 

minute or so time schedule and and the 

reaction of the people who experience 

that and the reaction of the people in 

the room is is very dramatic it I'm not 

quite sure what the reaction is other 

than it's very dramatic 

well like learning it's the drama in the 

mind that might provoke the change the 

the notion of being in public is 

critical at this point because it 

renders hyper difficult your ability to 

stay presence focus on the individual 

knowing that you have 60 pairs of eyes 

for example looking at you and measuring 

every word and whether margin got it 

right or wrong and that pressure is a 

simulation of the busyness that we 

always feel somehow it's not similar 

it's sort of like a proxy for the 

busyness that we have I see so so within 

these contexts where if you are one of 

these people talking or reflecting you 

are very conscious of the fact that you 

have a whole audience they're watching 

you at the time and and that audience 

and that consciousness rather is a proxy 

for the normal thing that you would feel 

about trying to get stuff out and say 

things it really Hyper's your focus on 

to onto that feeling 

yes I I've been experimenting and thus 

would like you to say that one can gain 

kernels of what I'm trying to achieve 

which is awareness 

our inability to listen awareness of the 

interest in wanting to listen more in a 

fabricated environment such as having 

people do it in front of other people 

which by the way we're doing because 

this is gonna be retransmitted but you 

and I right now we don't feel like we 

have a million eyes on us but where are 

we to be on television doing this Paul 

right I would argue we would deep deep 

you know noodle noodling around all 

right 

right Wow wow that's I got a like I got 

so I got there my lack of ability to to 

listen and and exactly what you were 

saying I got so involved in in trying to 

experience being in that situation that 

I kind of lost the thread but what I got 

was that the being in front of the large 

audience of people well it said well it 

certainly heightened the experience and 

some in some way it just heightened the 

experience of being of saying and and oh 

I know what it was it was the ability to 

become conscious of your own inability 

to listen and to take you know take some 

kind of action towards improving that 

ability to listen it was that perfect 

yeah so my gig is you know finding ways 

for the reminisce we say in French carry 

on effect and and when you spark these 

kinds of ha 

moments this is a lightbulb moment the 

the learning moment where people observe 

the inability observe the errors of 

translation and say hmm maybe I should 

remember this in the future 

mm-hmm so I'm thinking more the 

listeners but perhaps also the 

practitioners in those situations 

it's like having a bright light Shawn on 

to their ability or lack thereof to hear 

what somebody else is saying and to 

reflect it back to them and and and I 

guess to think that that's an important 

thing to do I am feeling heard Martin 

okay okay good 

okay well I guess we're kind of running 

out there aren't we how many more we got 

here we had 20 minutes finance okay well 

I guess I'll keep going around the 

circle then and okay I you know I'm I'm 

not actually sure that I have a lot to 

say which is unusual for me this is it's 

quite an exciting conversation and I'd 

be certainly interested to see whether 

you know whether any of the ideas that 

have gone around here and how they would 

incorporate it into the empty circles 

I'm I you know I I think the empathy 

circle as it is right now as you call it 

a stage one 

you know first lesson is is valuable 

just the way it is but then when you 

move into some kind of functional 

application which is what mental is talk 

about you know 

we're where people are looking for some 

outcomes which is more kind of my 

territory then you know I can see that 

perhaps some new technology some new 

methods kind of that you can move to it 

might be might be quite useful okay so 

at first you didn't weren't sure what to 

talk about and kind of joking that 

that's something for you not to know to 

talk about but then you had some ideas 

that's really about sort of the that you 

feel like you and mentor want some sort 

of an outcomes from the empathy circle 

and how do you move from sort of this 

stage one to stage two and just sort of 

wondering if anything will come come out 

of it but then also valuing just the 

basic practice itself - yes and I think 

you know going around the basic practice 

I it's almost like you want to do a 

debrief I mean there was sometimes there 

is a little quick debrief and at the end 

of the empathy circles you have that 

last round you know what did you get out 

of this kind of around and and usually 

it's a field as in my experience it's 

kind of like a feel-good kind of put it 

to bed kind of round but I guess I 

haven't used an empathy circle in anger 

if you like you know I I haven't I 

haven't taken it to the frontlines with 

me other than there are elements there 

are elements of the obviously the the 

the close listening and the reflective 

listening that we use in in mediation 

but I haven't sort of sat to myself in a 

mediation said you know what this 

mediation is off the rails what we need 

to do is an empathy circle and here's 

how it works and let's go around and do 

this I haven't actually done that in an 

actual situation but it might be 

interesting to try and and just see how 

it works where you just kind of shift 

people I mean we often do the reflective 

thing listen what I want you to do is 

imagine being in the other person's 

shoes I mean we actually do 

you know and I want you to tell me what 

you think that they think of this 

situation what do you think they might 

think of the fact that you did that 

yeah and so we'll often do that kind of 

technique which is a little bit you know 

this kind of forcing them into an 

empathic position hmm so you're 

wondering like how it would work like an 

empathy is using an empathy circle in a 

real conflict with anger and you do sort 

of role taking you have you have the 

participants sort of like what would the 

other person what would you be feeling 

if you were the other person do you do 

that sort of role thinking but not sort 

of the empathic listening it sounds like 

yeah yeah I I haven't watched the whole 

video of the tent at the Berkeley of the 

Berkeley can fracas there that you did 

where you took the tent out and you had 

that leader of the right came in and and 

and I watched some little bits of it but 

I haven't watched the whole thing so is 

that something you would recommend that 

I watch the whole thing because there's 

some real nuggets in there yes you're 

just wondering like would that be a good 

example the right and the left talking 

at Berkeley it I'd be a good example of 

how to mediate a really contentious 

circle using yeah using empathise yeah 

right 

no I was I was looking for an answer 

okay so yeah you really would like an 

answer and you feel hurt okay then I'll 

speak back to you okay okay so the 

that's the the circle that you're 

talking about it only went for about 

10-15 minutes and it was interrupted by 

an Tifa or the group do you they're a 

scream 

yelling and we couldn't even hear each 

other talk so it's not the best example 

of a successful empathy circle yet yeah 

it because it was interrupted and then 

we stood up and then those words like 

surrounded by media we ended up doing 

all these media you know discussions 

which took us off from the empty circle 

it is an example of what in an intense 

situation something it didn't didn't 

work totally well because it was so much 

screaming and yelling around the 

outskirts of people trying to shut it 

down right oh that's right you're 

talking to me yeah right I was listening 

to the answer to all my questions that 

you don't okay so you are answering the 

fact that that that example of the 

trying to introduce the empathy stoical 

into a very tense situation only lasted 

about 10 minutes in fact so I've 

actually probably did see most of it but 

it descended into screaming and shouting 

and by the participants but by outside 

people trying to shut it down they did 

not delay the political left did not 

want the dialogue to take place so they 

were screaming yelling we were talking 

to each other for me to just across with 

a megaphone to hear each other we are 

sharing a megaphone to speak to someone 

like three or four feet away because 

there was so much outside screaming and 

potential violence coming in so that 

wasn't the most effective you know an 

environment for holding you know empathy 

circle right so the participant 

participants themselves were were ready 

to go along with the new circle 

technology but the outside the political 

left in this case didn't want this to 

happen for whatever reason was 

attempting to interrupt shouting at very 

short distances with with a megaphone to 

Indiana and the participants were doing 

great it was like in 

easy it was actually quite easy because 

the participants were doing a really 

good job the next day we set up at UC 

Berkeley again with our empathy tent and 

the leader on the right he brought a 

friend of his and there's a recording of 

this and this friend of his is very well 

known in the right wing because he was 

one of the first to fight back against 

the antifa he's huge he was a fighter 

until he became a real hero on the right 

for you know standing up and fighting 

back and then the leader of the group 

brought him to the tent and said this 

guy needs an empathy circle so he sat 

down there's no nt4 there's no left we 

just grabbed somebody that was on the 

left we sat down and did a half an hour 

empathy circle it worked great I mean it 

was yeah it worked really well 

he's always nobody trying to shut it 

down it was just it was easy to mediate 

right right so the next so the next day 

the one of the right wing guys brought a 

lead at one of the right wings a leader 

the leader of the right wing group 

brought one of the members right a big 

guy a fighter I said this guy needs an 

empathy circle and you sat down with him 

and and had a successful firing yeah and 

the this guy his name was Kyle and 

there's an article written about it and 

as a video a bit too so I can say the 

link he started he started playing a 

little bit like he wasn't really 

reflecting and you know he was kind of 

making fun I said no you just reflect 

back what you hear the other person said 

he says oh this is serious so he took it 

serious I mean he really tried to you 

know take it seriously so in that 

context I find you know you're talking 

about the right if the right takes part 

they usually really like the practice 

they like the structure they like the 

effectiveness of it is just getting him 

into the circle but once they get into 

it they tend to be very supportive of it 

okay so the right the guy who came 

you know at first it was a little bit 

playful and just kind of like going 

along with the whole thing but you said 

no no you just reflect what you hear and 

and so he said oh okay this is serious 

and and he did that and then you go into 

it and your experience has been that the 

people on the right typically once they 

get into the process and understand how 

it goes actually do very well with it 

and like him well as a ton of other 

stuff I could say but I just see our 

time we only got 11 minutes left so 

maybe we'll stop here and we can just 

kind of open it up for sort of a 11 

minutes debrief freestyle you know 

discussion anybody I felt that that 

little exchange that we had there was a 

couple of moments there where we kind of 

like were on the edge of of just 

dialogue as opposed black thing back and 

forth mostly because I wasn't wasn't 

really doing it very well but I felt 

hurt yeah okay yeah I'm really enjoying 

this I think we need three or four hours 

is our family four or five hours in our 

family and fifty circles yeah you're 

just kind of getting warmed up but just 

after a couple hours well that's amazing 

these two hours have gone by just like 

that I mean I did you know sometimes I 

think two hours yeah that's a big 

commitment you know two hours of time 

but that went very pretty quick and yeah 

I know it was a pleasure I think the 

objective was specific and that allowed 

for or you know we kept on track for the 

most part you know with baubles and and 

maybe in you necessary wobbles to move 

around and explore different areas and 

again it's interesting as you say Martin 

how quickly time can fly I'm totally in 

favor of empathy circles as a 

preliminary base as a way to explore and 

and democratize I'm more in Phase two 

land and so I that's that's where I come 

from this where I think about how to 

embed it in to business where you know 

50 minute meetings already sometimes too 

long and there are just too many 

meetings as it is and and while if we 

spend more time thinking about strategy 

and being nice to each other there or 

these listening to another one could 

speed things along for sure to get it in 

the door you can't go in with a to our 

regular empathy circle so need to 

structure it differently as far as 

putting it into business concerned yet I 

think that you mentioned the half hour 

version Edwin and or maybe it was you 

Martin but we we can do shorter versions 

that could have interesting maybe 

spectacular effects maybe not quite as 

long-lasting just like meditation takes 

time to instill you're not gonna learn 

to be a guru of meditation by one 10 

minute 

you know guided session so I thought I 

was right sorry yeah there's some years 

ago I did a course called corporate 

circles it's Maureen Fitzgerald she 

wrote a book called corporate circles 

and one of the lines that always stuck 

with me was if you're arranging a 

corporate meeting get there half an hour 

early and hide the table and so 

everybody is sitting around in chairs 

with no table in the middle completely 

changes the whole dynamic of the way 

that people relate in that situation 

[Music] 

let's go ahead we care 

the chairs that - you could although 

being Westerners we tend to sit in 

chairs it's really hard to in 

cross-legged on the floor you know if 

you have them just standing up 

definitely that's that's interesting I 

hadn't I hadn't thought of going that 

far 

normally I do i do do corporate circles 

and i do you know circles and many large 

group conflict situations and it's 

normally a little bit of the kind of the 

Talking Stick and and the celebratory 

object of some sort in the center of the 

circle and everybody sitting on chairs 

and round and it is a very powerful 

technique sure you know we could use 

that at Occupy Wall Street in the 

empathy tent that and it was I just 

found that people really wanted to speak 

more please get a big group here is 

limited in terms of you know how much 

time you have to speak so the idea is to 

break it up into really small groups so 

it could be a lot more active you know 

it can be a lot more active so that was 

there's another one called dynamic 

facilitation for large talkative groups 

which developed by a guy over here in 

Port Townsend in Washington State 

Jim rough and and that's when you you 

you set up four boards with recorders on 

them and they each have a different 

topic and thing they're recording and 

when you go into the room there's always 

somebody ready to burst you know they 

just one other that it out so you go to 

them first and so what you do is you 

follow the energy in the room and as 

that person talks you record everything 

they say on these four boards and you 

keep asking them how we got it 

have we got everything got all your 

points here and eventually they'll look 

and they'll say yeah yeah I think you 

got it off 

you suck them dry and then they sit down 

and shut up and you go to the next one 

and you work your way down through the 

energy levels until you get to the last 

guys and then you say John you didn't 

say much today why don't you got to say 

you know and you pull them in and say I 

know Rosa she's one of the he's doing 

that that's right I forgot about Rosa 

yeah so she's actually she and I have 

worked a lot with the empathy circles 

so and and she is now using empathy 

circles as a gateway practice into 

dynamic facilitation because it's that 

initial phase where people are just like 

dying to be heard yes and so by teaching 

everyone to do an empathy circle they're 

sort of Dino purging all that energy to 

begin with and they're also learning the 

empathic listening practice because in 

the dynamic facilitation she said she's 

actually called an empathic inquiry as 

well is that is that the facilitator is 

doing the reflection like it is an 

empathic listening but the facilitator 

reflects back what the speaker is saying 

make sure the speaker feels heard and 

then they put it into those categories 

so start giving form you know different 

buckets basically if you're using the 

sign and they start organizing the 

material you just keep going they she 

does like you know two-day workshops you 

know on this but now she's starting with 

empathy circles as uh as a first step 

because it kind of teaches everyone sort 

of practices that is another aspect in 

terms of artificial intelligence or you 

know augmenting tools is to start 

capturing what has been generated and 

giving it form like one of the problems 

were other solutions what is the data 

and so forth so it yeah would totally 

fit it's again the Gateway but again 

this empathic listening is the gateway 

to that whole practice so I close with 

one final thought which is a problem a 

friend someone who read my book says I 

really love your book and it's really 

great but I said well why didn't you 

have you ever have you ever done an 

empathic circle empathy circle and he 

said no I don't know what it is and and 

and my thought was well how do I get him 

to know about it without him doing it if 

you will with us to Shepherd him in and 

it just struck me the problem I'm 

voicing is 

it requires a shepherd somehow to bring 

them in like I would say a first trip on 

LSD and once you're in your I got it 

I know what it is I can do it but as far 

as propagate acing it would be lovely if 

I could just write out on my Twitter 

feed hey guys do an amputee circle on 

our problem but that won't fly you kind 

of need to have someone rushing them in 

and then they can fly by themselves 

yeah what's great though this is part of 

it of creating that introductory those 

little baby steps that's I've been 

working at then this circle is sort of 

helping to build those baby steps with 

trainings and make it really easy for 

people to do that first step so thanks 

for that 

that's definitely what I'd like to 

create today is there an Eliza today 

where for instance I can tell a story to 

my computer and then I can sit back and 

my computer reflects my story back to me 

and me formulated well the I would 

suggest trying to ones meet suku which 

is a they're both bots MIT s UK you 

and the second is whoa bot wo e bo T and 

they're both interesting experiments or 

opportunities to to converse so as 

conversational AI and they are more or 

less I mean they're more sophisticated 

than Eliza for sure Mitsu Kuh 

I'm actually gonna have my podcast soon 

the guy who created that Steve Wars 

ouack he gave the bot as some agency on 

top of that and it's won many years in a 

row the touring Alan Turing test or a 

reward so it's it's quite phenomenal and 

we'll bot is interesting because it has 

a sense of humor anyway try them out 

okay okay well we'll close then thank 

you very much very grateful for your 

participation I learn 

a lot and now look forward to connecting 

in the future keeping the ball rolling 

billing is everything