(View On YouTube or On Facebook) Topic: What is your experience of taking part in an Empathy Circle? In this Empathy Circle participant who have previously taken part in an Empathy Circle will discuss the experience of taking part in the circle.
About the Empathy Circle
An Empathy Circle is a structured dialogue process that effectively supports meaningful and constructive dialogue. It increases mutual understanding and connection by ensuring that each person feels fully heard to their satisfaction.
Participants
Transcript to Clean. okay this is our empathy experts or I should say empathy activists circle these are people who have worked are working extensively on the topic of empathy we're taking part in an empathy circle here's let's get started with the introductions I'm Edwin Raj director the Center for building a culture of empathy so for about 14 years I've been working quite intensively on topic of empathy how do we build a more empathic Society interviewing hundreds of experts on the topic and doing all kinds of different projects so Martin would you like to introduce yourself next okay my name is Martin Golda I'm a mediator in British Columbia in Canada when I my most of my career was actually as an architect but I became a mediator in about 1996 and discovered that empathy was actually one of the central tools of conflict resolution and and I was woefully short of it I often start my lectures by saying that my empathy was surgically removed in British boarding school and there's a lot of truth to that so I developed a concept of mechanical empathy one might say my wife says I should call it prosthetic empathy for something you strap on if you've had your empathy removed you can strap on prosthetic empathy and in fact in terms of conflict resolution it actually works very well I would say I'm using the intellectual side of empathy in that I'm getting into content a bit here but anyway that's how I got into the whole subject of empathy and I went on a bit of a quest about a 15 year quest to see if I could find the real thing and how at the time I started it was generally thought that you know you either had it or you didn't and but as it turns out as we now know it it can be taught it can be acquired and I've talked to me PhDs with fMRI machines that confirm confirm that so that's who I am oh great thanks mentor work in progress smarten a so my name is min turd dial I am 54 and live in Europe although mixed baggage in my background I've lived in Canada and United States England France Spain Switzerland and a few other places have been places about space I was born in Belgium and today I'm a speaker author filmmaker and my last book I don't have a copy of it but I thought I'd drum up a digital version X I'm a kind of a digital geek it's called heart official empathy I'm just I don't know if you can see if there's not so well here's some other more or less blurred out anyway harder for sympathy putting heart into business and artificial intelligence and in the wake of that book I've been looking at exactly how to encode food empathy into businesses and into machines and like you March and I came into it saying well I I must say I previously had come across it as a wonderful concept running business in L'Oreal where I worked for 16 years and and yet when I started to write the book I realized that I too had some deficiencies in the empathy compartment and and I offers and I also like you got very sort of focus more on the let's say the cognitive side of it rather than the emotional side which is something more learn about I think than the emotional or affective empathy oh great well we're gonna have some a chance to talk about empathy here we're doing an empathy circle and I'll just give a short introduction you both know how to do it but for anyone watching how it empathy circle works we have on our website we have a one-page description that's quite accessible so an empathy circle is based on mutual active listening so in this process one person speaks and they select you they're going to speak to and they talked about the topic at hand or whatever is alive for them whatever comes up that's you know kind of a burning topic on top of your mind or feelings you speak to the person you're supposed to speak to your chosen that person and you pause periodically and that the person you're speaking to reflects back their understanding of what you've said sort of recap being summarizing paraphrasing but just kind of getting the essence of what the speaker is saying and the intention is for the speaker to be heard to their satisfaction and the speaker will have six-minute turn so you can speak for you know six minutes on topic and then once you feel heard to your satisfaction at a time is up and you can say I feel fully heard then it would be the listeners turn to become the speaker and then choose someone else in the group and that person reflects back we go around for the time allotted so a couple tips that is the speaker you know you want to pause periodically so the listener can reflect back with their hearing the speakers you say and also if you're the listener and the speaker is kind of going on and on you can say you can ask for a pause though if you just pause let me reflect back because it becomes a lot to sort of hold you know the most if it becomes multiple concepts so that's pretty much the essence of it so in the as a listener active listener you're reflecting back the essence of what you hear and you're recapping and you're trying to avoid putting your own stuff and they're not putting any judgments or or die nursing or advising but just really trying to share what you hear the person say so that's the other component so this topic is a bit of a mecca a sort of a topic it's what is your experience of taking part in the empathy circle so you know what are you experiencing what feelings come up what insights come up what do you like with you not like so does that seem pretty clear and I'll do the timekeeping as well and so it's really about this this practice which you know for my years of experience I find this like the most sort of easy first step sort of gateway practice or trying to sort of promote it you know create as much information and experience rather as possible that's why works we're using the process and talking about it at the same time so with that if anybody would like to start you know select - you'd like to speak to and we can just get the ball rolling if you want to speak to me as a sample that's good - or over anybody feels motivated Marcin do you feel like jumping in well I suppose somebody has to do you mean as ELISA or a speaker as a speaker okay yes okay well mentor I guess I'll we're somewhat limited in our choices today but choose it but you can choose the Joker I guess at the moment I mean one of the things I've wrestled with quite a bit is in in mediations in conflict resolution I often run into a perception that any expressions of empathy and compassion are considered weaknesses to be exploited by the other side and I have a friend in Brussels a corporate lawyer and and she says empathy is no part of my business I it's just not part of my seen at all and yes go ahead so what you're saying what I hear you saying Martin is that in your practice of mediation you oftentimes come across the notions that empathy and or compassion can be scenes seen as weaknesses and some people will have a sort of a nervous reaction to it so I don't want any of that absolutely yeah and so I have an ongoing conversation with this particular corporate lawyer just because we became friends in Madrid the conference there and you know and it's not that I'm trying to persuade her to adopt empathy although perhaps I am and I'm I sort of feel like my mission is to try and open her eyes to and for me to find out from her experience you know does them with the impact have any meaning in the world that she exists then of you know corporate lore and and she does conflict resolution between states I guess as well she does so but you're sometimes feeling but not store whether you are there to persuade her about benefits or role of empathy in her work her work me a little bit different she's a lawyer and seems to be mediating between states right and you know she made the right maybe maybe empathy doesn't have any place in her world and I'm I feel a little unsure of that and yet you know within the other world that I exist in sort of more empathic world where everybody is just like an empathy guru it seems crazy to think that the somewhere where empathy as Paul bloom might say you know is there's not appropriate so in in your world I assume what you mean there's sort of your peers as opposed to the work of mediation with people who are upset at one another it seems that there many people that obviously have drunk the kool-aid and think empathy is the greatest thing and as useful for everybody except mr. bloom who might be against empathy right absolutely okay well that was how we doing for time okay okay okay so anyway that's one of the one of the areas that that I have going on the frontiers of my research see I like yes the other one that's that's really big right now for me is that it's not so much the empathy thing but it well I was really glad to see empathy circles and extinction rebellion kind of coming into some kind of alignment there and talking to each other I have a group called the final run which is not only individuals final run the period between say retirement and death something like that also a cultural violent or final run for Humanity is paralleling that individual process and and I'm not sure I mean it's a kind of a separate thing from empathy but then empathy infiltrates everything and the final run for a moment in our human culture is the dominant story oh you were first of all saying that this is this is a second big area of interest to suppose within empathy when you were excited to see how empathy circles and the extinction rebellion threads were weaved in and then you link in to that this notion final run whether or not it's the let's move it into the hospice you know the ACA as we move towards death and I suppose in stages before that or on a more meta cultural level the the end of civilization or somehow some of our civilizations if that's what I am that's right yes and and you know how might I mean Edwin has a you know very strong model that he would tout I think as as you know a sort of a solution to everything in some ways maybe not you can correct us on that later I went but and I wonder I wonder you know I don't know I you know could I go to the front lines you know what does empathy look like on the front lines and I I have a lot of kind of unknowns in my life around around the future unfolding and how it will actually hit me and how I will actually react in more extreme situations cool if I understand correctly you're looking at well you you wonder how empathy will play out at the front line wherever that front line abstract is it might seem in terms of the evolution of society and and where he in control of that and how empathy will play out within that you sort of question oh and of course the finality of the outcomes that might be facing in terms of piety yes where if you you've cut out a few things in that but but yes basically I definitely feel that you heard what I was saying so thank you very much my pleasure I'm assuming that you was technical cutouts or because I was doing abbreviations of your audios ranking up a little bit I have a Parisian Wi-Fi system as well yeah so Edwin listening let me speak to you so empathy circles let me start by talking about my experience of them and then move into what I think of them so my experience of them was that I I really felt very naive when I first embarked on them and as I started I really felt very inadequate in my ability to listen and I I could find my busy brain going haywire and and of course this is also at the very beginning connecting into the new people which confuses my mind so what I'm hearing there is that your experience when you're first started was one you're feeling a sense of inadequacy so I'm a bit of anxiety about that and then also you have a lot of new people in the circle there's sort of a so maybe some bangs you didn't say they weren't anxiety but may be so many anxiety around you know relating to the new people and then the in in the process of the very first one how I I start to be a little bit more clued in to it then then there's members the second empathy circle and it's a new set of people I'm a little acclimate it's the ideas and the procedures of it and yet I can still see my limbic brain coming out or at least other elements of my reactions that confuse confound what I'm hearing and all the same by the end I feel like I'm back in a good place where I am getting this and then now I'm where I I get go oh you're breaking up a little bit there you may want to pause your video just because your voice is breaking up not give you more bandwidth okay so do me to say I'll say what I heard so what I heard is like the first day the first circulated be had so that anxiety but you started getting familiar with the process so the second time you still had you know some discomfort or but you are getting more comfortable with the practice and then that's kind of work where I stopped the hearing was good to the point now that I I'm Garrett in from I'm dialed in from minute one okay so from the from the beginning you're you're familiar with it and when you get started like right now you're just feeling more comfortable with your my mind sets much more ready for having done several of these not only by notion of I have to meet Martin new person obviously I know you and and then there's the idea of that mind space to be present enough to really focus in on what's you know what's being said by the individuals okay so if you get more comfortable you get more kind of present to be able to be present with with people and now you feel more comfortable and more present an exam earns there that's right no but that's that's the notion right so that's my experience as to my opinion of them so as a as a technique I like a lot of the elements the process the notion of two hours and the limited number of people like an empathy circle with three for example I feel like there's there's more there could be more flexibility within that and certainly for the two hours on a practical level especially since for me it's 7 p.m. to 9 p.m. it's it's a whack that's that's dinner time you know and we live in compressed times so I feel like the two hours may be a very onerous element on an ongoing basis hmm so for the sort of practical aspect the time is is difficult I mean two hours for an empathy circle with busy lives you know is is sort of it's difficult and especially if it's you know with finding time to work for the people then you're doing it around dinnertime and so that gets like another complication I mean of course time is precious for everybody so the then the point becomes the usage of empathy circles especially in my field which is more in a business space and it seems impossible for me to use an amputee circle in a business environment especially since it feels like the real benefits start sink in only it empathy circle two or three the sustainable benefits the benefit where I feel like I'm ready I mean yeah so there's a with the empathy circle it takes time to kind of work your way into it into the second third one and then by the third time you feel comfortable you're ready to really get in deeper and that it sounds like you're saying that the the time aspect in a business would be really difficult to do that because you know just it takes so much time yeah that's right and if I have more time I'd one that was six minutes but if you only just finished well just the the final element is that I feel like the embassy circle is a good entree as you say yet there are going there needs to be others that are you know maybe sophisticate the elements of empathy in a business environment so it's not just listening to the words being said but it might be decoding the emotions and and everything else that goes into empathy so there's a to make it practical in a work environment you feel there needs to be other sort of aspects brought in for example how do you read feelings and or decode them yes I feel hurt okay then I'll speak to Martin yeah there is one thing I like the term I think though Stephen can be mentioned the empathy takes time and efficiency as machines so it's that notion that one thing about empathy is it does take time you know so that and I find it like with doing the empathy circle it usually takes about an hour to just through and even start getting you know kind of comfortable getting familiar with the practice and they're sort of like in the second hour where everybody is you sort of sink in deeper and that it's yes my experience okay so what you're saying is that yeah empathy takes a bit of time and Stephen Covey said that empathy takes time and efficiency as for machines and so your experience of the empathy circles is in that first hour or is where people are just kind of coming to grips with okay so this is empathy and the and the process that's going on and then in the second hour they start to okay I get it now and then maybe something deeper happens in that second balance yeah and the the practice is basically built is just the active listening a lot Carl Rogers who used active you really develop the practice within the therapeutic realm of sitting with an hour with the client and just listening to them in using active listening or an ethic listening so it's it comes from that experience and that practice and you know therapeutic world work the therapist just sits and listens in a non directive way just hearing the person who is speaking giving them space to share and having someone that's sort of accompanying them on their journey without trying to tell them where to go or what to do so one of the features of empathy circles comes out of the experience of the therapeutic movement and active listening Carl Rogers and others where you are as the chosen listener in the interaction you are just listening and paying attention and letting the other person feel that somebody is listening and somebody is hearing me and get to the point where Wow I've been heard and there's you know all kinds the studies that you know for a really good you know for a therapist to do for healing you know an offer healing that the empathy is in an ethnic therapist is the it's like a requirement the best therapists or the most empathic ones in terms of for for you know supporting people in in their healing and growth so in terms of the again coming out to the therapeutic model and a healing modality within an empathy circle the the best listeners the best healers other people who are most emphatic yeah and at least that's what they're the studies I've seen have been and then so we're trying to do is take it out of this therapeutic realm where there's you know a trained therapist and bring it into a mutuality so we're it's mutual listening something that anyone can do so to make it sort of reproducible to the to the masses so to speak to the white you know anybody with a little bit of practice do a couple circles watch some and then you can start taking part so it's something that's you know takes it out of the professional world and brings it into just human interactions so one of the things that you're trying to do with empathy circles is to take the healing and empathic mode and make it available to everybody so not just you don't have to go down to the to the therapists you can get together with a bunch of people have an empathy circle and and anybody can do that yeah and when I did something like you hear a mediator and so I've done mediation trainings here as well and from my observation if this mutual the mediator is sort of like trying to listen to and listen to the different parties and ethically and then get the parties to impact listen to each other it's like the core practice it seems to me of mediation and the epital the core of that mediation you know it's the core practice of if you had if there's a conflict you bring it into an empathy circle the whole practice in using active listed mutual active listening sort of unravels the Gordian can unravel accordion not most conflicts right so in paralleling empty circles to a practice of mediation there was a lot of similarities that in terms of the essence of a mediation and conflict dealing with conflict is to empathically go to each party and have each party feel heard you know only by the mediator but also by each other yeah kind of ten more to say but my time is not my field okay great well maybe I'll talk back to you then okay on this one you know yeah I really liked what mentor was saying I mean jumping straight into the the reason for this I mean focusing on you know our reaction to empty circles and and how we have it have it have experienced them I think you know for me I've often said that I love the fact that you have those two weights that you sometimes lift up behind you and say it's all about the practice practice practice you know you just keep exercising those empathic muscles and they get stronger and stronger the I think for me that the whole I mean the listening is is the key really and and sometimes it's pretty difficult you know to actually listen to people and to actually hear what they're saying sometimes it's it's so page and and and then my mind wanders or you know and I'm not focused and I think the empathy circle for me has been a really good it's like an exercise it is like this you know there's this so what you're speaking to is the exercise it's a it's a it's an exercising and a practising of it it's analogous that I can use that metaphor to that story and you know shows the weights and so you do see it as a as a practice and it sounds like sometimes when you're listening to people it's clear what they're saying and other kinds of sort of opaque to so you could have different qualities of hearing people yes absolutely and and so my experience at the empty circles has always been that Wow you know and as you know sometimes I found it quite hard quite difficult and and then at other times it just flows and so that probably is the you know the familiarity again that that meant to talk about of doing it two or three times and and eventually it flows a lot more easily and yeah so sometimes you're noticing the different qualities of it that sometimes when you're taking part it's like it's it's difficult and other times it flows and perhaps part of the flow is just doing it more yes and and then the other thing that mentor was talking about there too was the you know what he thought of it and what he thought of the empathy circles and so I was just thinking about that a little bit I mean usually when I finish one I'm thinking wow that that is a really good technology I really like that and it is very simple as you mentioned - very similar as you mentioned to some of the situations might be in a mediation it's I you know there is a part of the practitioners and you know I've certainly been there where you want to react to something to what somebody else is saying you know as opposed to just telling them what they said and I think the the discipline of you know going through that to just reflecting what they've said it is one of the powerful things and I've just I'm just thinking about example the other day on the climate change thing where you know one participants hmm really really very very different views about that and it was very hard not to react to some of those years hmm so again made part of the practice is that like when you're listening to someone you find that you know you're wanting to react to them like they say something you want to immediately react and they're sort of in the practice you're only having to listen so it's a good practice just to listen and notice actually an example you know in the climate change where somebody was saying something felt which may be sort of outrageous you just really wanted to react to it we had to sort of hold back and just listen yes yes and so you know when I you know think of you know you're moving the empathy circle into contentious realms you know with the the protesters at Berkeley or or or the climate change thing where you really get people on on with different views a you know I think for a long time I wondered how useful is it going to be you know how people will people play the game you know will they abide by the rules and you know no I just want to shout you down and and I I guess I'd be interested in hearing no stories more extreme situations - yeah so you're you're wondering like in really contentious situations with people doing empathy circles would they stay with the practice and the process so they just you know start yelling at each other and you're kind of interested in hearing like stories about it and so I just kind of curious about that yeah yeah no I shouldn't hearing some of your views on that I don't know if I feel fully hurt either okay okay no I'm I I mean how could I not feel fully heard talking to you hey you feel full you're like me we listening to you okay then I'll speak to thanks major and you meet it so I saw had my video off I suppose I could do it when I'm not speaking but in this case to keep it good I need to get so okay let's see wow that was great so yeah there's some things coming up one thing sort of responding to mentor you're saying that you know about the empathy circle being sort of a there needs to be more in business I do see it as the empathy circle is like a first step but it's like a really important first step and it's like and like with the practice it's just like we I feel like you need to practice it you need to get really comfortable with it just like when you're getting more and more comfortable with the mentor that you know if you just keep doing it and doing it get more and more that comfort kind of gets deeper and deeper ingrained and I think that's a real that's what what the practice of it is is that that getting really really comfortable with the practice so while I had mentioned I needed a mentor had mentioned more complexity maybe other elements necessary you reiterate it is a first place first base and yet really fundamental element that needs to be practiced on a ray or an iterative basis yeah yeah and it's something that we can teach every person in the world to become a facilitator it's within it's sort of doable in terms of like you know everyone could learn the practice and I think it would be like a first it'd be sort of like a first step momentum to get people to go down that path the empathy path so if we can necessarily my sort of goal is around the empathy circle really to sort of mass-produce it and then make it something that's just accessible for everyone to do because people can get a lot of benefits out of this you get a lot a huge amount of payoff then fits just with this first basic practice yes so you're looking at the empathy circle as a way to democratize the notions and you see it as being something that many people could facilitate once you've done it a few times you can get the process and you could make it therefore easier more accessible to many more people yeah for example in my family this Sunday we're going to be doing a family empathy circle and we just did one you know a month and a half ago so we have this issue in the family that the last one was four hours it will probably go another four or five hours this Sunday so we get the family together and we you know just kind of talk about this this this family issue and it really helps you know the family members have become very trusting and the practice things that would have blown up before you know it's like here's a oh if I just stick with this practice and I'll be heard we'll be able to work things through so that's just something I can see every in any family you know using this practice you know quite quickly and you can really you know get a lot of benefits in your family or you know with close relationships in terms of having this tool to work out issues so you've used heavily circle within your family and articulated around one specific issue it went on for four hours and then you're gonna do another one and you can see it going on same amount of time in the process it's the trust as anybody feels oh I'm beginning to get it and I know that I at least will have my chance to be heard yep so it is yeah it is that trust building aspect and and it's also a sort of a fallback position that you can get really good into practice and then you can sort of let go of it than just dialogue you know you can just turn into normal regular dialogue but then dialogue can break down right it's like just kind of using typical dialogue breaks down you say oh it's broken down this is our fallback position is the empathy circle so if it's sort of like a safety net in terms of conflict that okay we can just chat it's fine and invariably things break down somebody says something somebody gets pissed off the tensions start rising you say up let's go back to the fantastic listening you know mutual empathic listening and then you kind of build up trust and you can let go of it again so in the nature of a conversation your family the empathy circles you might switch off the empathy circle technical elements so move into a more natural organic conversation you know but as soon as the conversation and then starts wobbling and issues start returning back into the conversation you can circle back and use the embassy empathy circle to normalize maybe safety at you word used allow us to come back to some kind of safer space and then continue on exactly I still fully heard thank you my pleasure so let me for the sake of keeping the rhythm different I don't know I'm going to speak back to you add when so I have my let's say my angle of course is very much my business filter and I also have this AI filter and I have explored how machines could detect empathy and that's sort of where my baggage is when I come into this you have two areas that you're focusing on is is the business empathy in business and empathy and AI so they're sort like filters or baggage that you're bringing with you absolutely as opposed to mediation or let's say family issues and as such I'm quite interested in in understanding and building up context call it data points in AI and reading emotions such as as they are expressed through so many different ways including voice facial expressions heartbeats body language and as a result I'm curious to see how empathy circles could evolve to allow us to pick up on these other elements which are not I would say intrinsic to the notion of strict listening so you're looking at empathy within AI as you know how do you read the body language the tone of voice and create these different data points for artificial intelligence and you're just wondering how how the empathy circle could sort of fit into to that framework those AI and the technical aspect of the computer aspirant the yes for it for example at this very moment being Meza you are only listening to my you have no indication as to whether I'm standing up I'm frowning and being cynical sarcastic or whatever and therefore you are focused on one single signal which is my the words coming out of my mouth and the intonation that I have and that's one form of listening but I could very well be spinning a story and inside by you crossed arms showing very different type of body language but that's not picked up in the empathy circle as it sits so right now I'm only hearing your voice and the intonation and your body language could be something totally different so you're we're only picking up serve lunch at a channel of your expression versus you know the the physical how you're physically looking if it's crossed arm or you know whatever and I find I find that notion of context and emotion reading necessarily important in building up cognitive empathy I leave you to swallow that one so it's important so it's important to have all those sort of data points is different for building cognitive empathy yes and so yes if it sport it hard to hear I'm sorry about that but the the other zone of interest from for me is that a this format is fungible so we can use it for families and mediation but it strikes me that the question we're gonna debate is is structure is is structuring so that if we're in a mediating or conflictual environment the nature of our ability to stick with that constrained question or issue is deeply important and and the ability for the moderator to keep us focused on that specific zone that we've mutually agreed to an advance so one aspect of a facilitator like or team leader whatever keep people on topic instead of it kind of drifting all over the place is that yes it's interesting that you have to struggle with the technical elements of listening as well sorry about that but I so my point was first there's the complexity of listening and reading emotions that go beyond reformulating the words I'm listening to a larger z' and to the nature of the issue that we're discussing for example people you know very well it's oftentimes much harder to be empathic with them than it is with a person you're sitting beside on an airplane meeting for the first time ok so there's there's sort of the understanding part it seems to be important that something you can have really good understanding for someone who you don't know personally you know they've got an airplane we that you could have deep understanding with them it may be more difficult with your family member yeah or issues with more baggage more babies so I I just was thinking in the empathy circle the way I'm approaching this is layering in these two other areas one is the different emotional readings and context data points are ultimately going to be necessary for artificial intelligence and two to think about the spectrum of of people and issues that we're looking at and I think there's a modularity that could help us to make empathy circles more efficient not necessarily in time but specific to what we're trying to achieve okay so you're saying that the empathy circle could be developed to make it more effective in terms of the outcome that's desired yes keeps coming to me is so the building on the empathy in the empathy circle how did it sort of expand it like I just keep focusing on this first step but there is another step that I think would be important which is the the feeling part is it as a speaker you know we can deepen the empathy circle by the speaker sharing more of their feelings I could share more of my felt experience right now that would kind of contribute to the deepening the emotional deepening of this so the speaker can do something to speak more from their emotional physical space right so in this first stage of the empty circle you kind of where we focus on the the back and forth the the act of the reflective listening you're looking to move that into perhaps the emotional level so what can the speaker do in telling their story that carries more emotion and can that be reflected back by the listener yeah and it's actually easier for the listener to reflect back feelings and complex you know concepts I've noticed - uh-huh so you see yeah so for the listener to reflect back feelings they yes they I can immediately see that sorry as opposed to from sometimes we get into some very complex wordy things and the listener has a hard time yeah so this was actually already with Crowell Rogers and his grad students because there's a whole field of how to take it to the next step and all these different grad students of Carl Rogers kind of took it off in all kinds of different directions and the one was Jean gentleman one of his grad students who said who are the people in therapy who are having the most growth kind of like emotional you know working through their problems and what is it that's making them more successful and from his studies it was the people who spoke about their felt experience in the moment and shared their felt experience in the moment had the most growth so he developed the whole practice called focusing which I would call self empathy is to notice your own felt experience in the moment and and share that and then have someone be accompanying you with empathic listening so that would be a step you know another step to deepening the practice is for the speaker to get really good at just sharing how they feel yeah I don't I feel in them in the moment you know I feel pretty excited about the topic here I feel kind of relaxed and spacious I feel kind of a sense of warmth you know towards you know both of you for kind of exploring this topic so that's just some of it I feel sort of yeah sort of a spaciousness okay here he has to be so so from Carl Rogers working and the various students who went off and explored his work more deeply one of the subjects was who's getting the best results and and how is that happening and it was discovered by one of his students I don't know the name gene gentleman who discovered that the people who shared more of their emotional states in the moment tended to get the better results and so you're thinking if we apply this to empty circles where people are encouraged perhaps to to share more of how they're actually feeling in the moment at a very emotional level that might be a place for empathy circles to explore some new territory yeah that would be a next step and I shared some of my experience too so that was just as an example how you felt very expansive and whether some other ones you know just excited I did yep and okay I know there's things yeah and then you then you thank just for sharing this experience yeah I was sharing my gratitude I felt I feel gratitude that you're here you know talking about this and exploring this together so I do feel gratitude for your participation okay you feel gratitude yeah the other thing about deed I've been Dean you know just recently in the last year it's just been sort of an explosion of talk about empathy and artificial intelligence and the one concern I have is that it's like here's this simple practice of just doing empathic listening but people want to go off and do all this complicated computer stuff you know and I would like to see them first master this simple practical step on all those people all those article all those writers that I see can you just learn and practice something that's sort of accessible and I've been I've talked to artificial intelligence people in Eric just seems like oh yes kind of a sales I'm not saying as for the mentor but this is like it's a sales job and it's like but they couldn't even do a empathic listening you know what I mean it's I get it I get a little concerned about that that it's becomes like is is hot topic but you know how about starting with just the you know have all those folks who are studying artificial intelligence just learn to do an empathy circle to begin with and then built it would actually see it would actually help in the development of the artificial intelligence I think to have those deeper personal experiences okay so with the the fact that you know in the AI well the exploration of ethics and empathy is a really hot topic you're feeling that perhaps all these people who are studying that could use an empathy circle or two to just come to the basics oh yeah learning some of those skills on the front lines of their lives and it would improve their there's this the work that they're doing I think right and so then they could take that experience and start applying that in the work they're doing in AI yeah I thought heard thank you okay thank you okay well I'll just keep moving around the circle then and and down to your mentor and I'll stop I'll stop my video well no you don't have to while you're listening if you like actually they're leaving the problem Oh eNOS it is really nice just wish to see you as opposed to the light and of some some code across there that comes when you're not there if you start breaking up I'll let you know you can see I have a pit behind me here that's France up there au revoir save you know give you some okay it's the waterways we have a boat in nice so okay I am those were some real I mean this is just so exciting I I am think what it's excited to be here I must say you know and it's and it's funny because it is such a simple practice and yet within that simple practice there are like so many embedded skills and that make me happy to be here and then and then you know with meeting you mentor here too is also extremely exciting to you know to to hear such a if I might say such an intellect you know talking is just always really really exciting so thank you for being here well I shake my head in tote I I shake my head in total judgment try to try to refuse the judgment that you're making maybe but anyway that was service I'm not sure what sort of sense of humor that was but anyway what you are experiencing is excitement of how the amp can you hear me okay yep how the empathy circle is a seemingly simple exercise but it it very quickly explodes into many more different pieces that are interestingly interesting in their own elements and anyway you're enjoying the experience of this empathy circle yes very much thank you and and where could it go I mean this this AI thing is as Edwin was saying it's obviously very big and obviously you're very much into it and I even had a little conversation with aggregate IQ about it the other day but as being a Victoria company you know here in Canada but it's you know whenever I introduce the concept of you know empathy into the AI conversation there are a lot of head shakers you know if you know you have the old classic of the automated car and the old lady and the kids on the crosswalk you know and how does the AI make that kind of decision and then it's becoming much more you know it's moved to so much more complex levels now so you're and you're talking about the body language and and all the features that you know facial recognition software can detect about speakers as being part of that input it's at the moment it's just like a huge humble jumble and you know in my mind it's definitely not organized and just to finish I'd say there's a really very funny video of a guy and and his daughter or a little kid like a one-year-old at 1:51 and a half year old kid talking and and the kid is going well or light or light rather and the data all right oh yeah wahhhh and the king of madra and they have this long conversation with absolutely no worse than this like this it's you'd swear they were talking and they are they are talking there's definitely a conversation happening there between them with this this child language what would a I make of that I wonder so a lot to digest so looking at empathy in artificial intelligence which is a burgeoning area the complexities within it let's say we're far from convincing you of the possibilities or maybe probabilities of it anyway within artificial intelligence and you're useful you know say on the fence as to its possibility and you you reference the idea of of all the other elements to go into a conversation including nonverbal communication because in that case you have a father and a child who aren't verbalizing words that are cognitively recognizable but still are conversing and probably there's some sort of empathy and emotion going on there and what would a machine think about that absolutely yeah I think it's not so much that I'm not convinced that this is a part that we or almost a rabbit hole that we're going down it's more that people in in conversations that I'm with are not convinced about it I I think I'm you know I would certainly be happy to be on the frontline of working with you know artificial intelligence people on some of those issues because I it is fascinating although I confess that when I was saying that I do feel lost I feel very lost in that in that in those realms so you you come across many people who are do potata v' about the idea of empathy and AI you're excited about it yet it's let's say a vast if not confusing topic absolutely yeah so where so is there someplace I empty circles as as I've been saying it's this simple technology it's an it's like an intro and introductive technology how would how would empty circles fit into you know this burgeoning field of AI empathy and AI and you know I I mean I guess one tends to have mixed feelings about the whole world of AI but you know you can have mixed feelings about anything and it still comes rolling down the pike a so you you sort of have to just kind of take it on as it comes no so we're not sure about the possibilities of empathy in AI but it does seem let's say more likely to be a in our future and then the question is how do we take it on and it's going to be every each one to their own because everything can be good or bad it depends how you use it if I can reformulate yes yes there's certainly in essence yeah that's - I often say to people you know you can build a house with a hammer or you can hit somebody over the head so say okay well no I feel heard on heard on that thank you lovely so I'm gonna come back at you Martin with video in queue you can raise your finger or if you need me to kill the video that way you can practice just audio so empathy circles as a method have definitely improve my understanding of listening skills and I understand their benefit as an introductory element i yet need to figure out step two step three because change in a in an organization typically can't just stay at the listening space for example at the conclusion of every empathy circle the the business minded individual want to know all right what do we what do we agree on we agreed on we might be better listeners okay so the empty circles for you have have definitely increased your appreciation and abilities perhaps even in in listening and how do we move that into the next step in fact what is the next step of that process because within you mentioned the business context for instance you would come to the end of an empathy circle and people would want some answers they want it laid down okay what did we decide you know what is that and and is that a piece of empty circles that needs to be developed or just like in presumably in mediation you you or the issue that's at hand we could talk about an issue that's non contentious and we have a nice time but nice times to forget a word in a business environment about that kind of need to have a an objective and a resolution and if you have mediation you kind of want a solution to the issue that you're mediating around and therefore as a judge in a courtroom will decide there is a decision or or some resolution and even the expression of the resolution can it by itself be contentious right so with the empathy circles I mean you still or rather with a mediation moving into that kind of model as you come to the end of the mediation there is a decision needed or an outcome that is desired and by the parties and how do you how do you how do you bring that into the empathy circle context did I get that right that's right because ultimately in a courtroom typically there's a judge which with a gavel that bang and says the decision worded hopefully with some empathy according to the loser in the winner or whatever yes so in a business environment whether with forgetting mediation we might be talking about an issue you will use the empathy circle as a format to resolve or improve our abilities to work together because maybe as a team we stopped working functioning well and as you maybe a little bit what Edwin's had before is if you move into the organic form of life where we converse in a natural way it can become a method of of coming back to so it almost feels like that might be an interesting area to formalize moving from empathy circle organic conversation back to empathy circle and and how that process could be more formalized in its way back into a work environment okay okay interesting idea so so because the there was a desire in many of the situations where the empty circles might be introduced as as a problem-solving technique but there was a desire for some kind of outcome and how one of the processes that might achieve getting to that outcome would be to allow the empathy circle to move into a more natural dialogue until its needs through until it goes off the rails or something like that and then has a there's a process a formal process to take it back into the empathy circle again and so you would have this natural mechanism to go into dialogue and then back into the empty set empathy circle I feel heard that I feel that that could be really interesting in a work environment and I would I would want to give it all but I would agree that that would need at least two hours because you need to sort of exercise empathy circle Ness then move into conversation honest and then see how it wobbles and then bring back empathy circle miss in a natural way such that it presents how we are in real life because that's the issue is you move away from the two hours into the other 22 and it's and and what we need is that to exist in the 22 mm-hmm okay a little reluctant to give up your objection to the two hour time frame however within with these added mechanisms of moving into natural speech and then back into empathy circle mode you can see that two hours will probably be sort of a minimum time for that but and and and and that's definitely an area in your view that is worth exploring in a in a formal way thank you March and I feel hurt okay you're welcome thank you okay well I guess I'll go on around the circle then to a way listening I I you know there is a natural part of me I find in the empathy circles and then other people too I'm sure that continually wants to break into that normal dialogue mode and you know I've been in many situations where a very structured environment has made that break into a natural and and sometimes well but more often in my world not well it the structure of mediations which have some similarities to this you know if you just kind of let it go ragged it can break apart pretty quick and and you know you end up with everybody shouting and then you got to kind of bring the whole thing back to square one and start again sometimes it's good so occasionally you know some people sometimes people just like to get you know they got to get the steam out sometimes you just got a loan go you know have a big dump and get it all out and then you wait until all that's done and then you kind of move in to a more structured approach to a solution hmm so it sounds like there's two parts that one is in the in the practice we've been doing now you've been feeling like you're wanting to just start speaking so it kind of a ten desire to just kind of go into the whatever's on your mind how to respond and then you're just noticing that as well as your then you're looking at with in mediation how does that have you seen that work where you know you have the note the structure and then sort of no structure by just doing whatever you're reacting however they want and sometimes just have to let people react so they can express all those pent-up frustrations and then you can go to the structure so you're just sort of exploring the relationship of that structure and so not having that structure right absolutely I'm just wondering whether it's you know whether we should almost give it a whirl you know give it a try whether we should so what would that even look like I you know having been in empathy circles now I don't even know I don't even know how that would work because usually it involves you know somebody's speaking somebody else speaking and then somebody else coming in and I don't even know how it would how you would break into that and break out out of them so kind of moving from the structured process into dialogue and then back into it like Minter was talking about as well you're not quite you're not sure like how that practice was would work even may be thinking of suggesting it here and how could we just go into you know dialogue without you know the practice process the structure right right so and you know within that dialogue mode it would be the sort of thing where I would or one of us would ask a question and then somebody would answer questions so I might ask you a question within the development of empathy circles to sort of true or or what do they say now dot 2 or something like that empathy circles I might say well what are your ideas on that ed what have you got in mind and then you would you know say well actually this is what I've got in mind and oh that and then Minda would say oh well that's really how about this question so I guess you get into this kind of question and answer exploration around the group there's some maybe there's some little kind of structural you may maybe they are in fact other structures that are as highly disciplined as this one but are just a bit different mm-hmm so there could be you're just saying how you can transfer transfer from this structure to another structure and they everything is the structure I guess in that sense there's another structure but how do you move from one structure to the other which has different you know qualities and nature to it it's kind of thinking different rules like how do you shift between these structures yeah yeah and then as soon as you as soon as you relax the rules or not relaxed but shift to a different set of rules it also creates license for people to behave in different ways [Music] oh that rule doesn't apply anymore now I can do this yeah yeah yeah so when you shift the rules you can act differently and behave differently and more and I must say one of the things I like about the empty circles is is the rigid structure I I find and I'm really surprised that people go along with it but maybe the people who don't want to go along with it never show up that's why you have a problem getting a right wingers in your left right conversations you know because this it's maybe it's too tight for them or something I don't know so there's a little surprise like here's this rigid structure and surprise that people like go along with it you're just kind of exploring like well maybe some people just don't want to take part in that rig destruction they just wouldn't show up and maybe the right is medical writers like that you see that's that's so excellent I was trying to trick you there I was I was trucking I was trying to get you to comment back on what I would say as opposed to just reflecting it this is a little trick yours like really let's get see if a word would respond back and you know it's just just reflected and there you go well thank you very much I feel good okay speak to Mincher then yeah the whole notion of a I assisted empathy circle sounds pretty good it's like there's the structure of the empathy circle and it could be sort of assisted with AI right there could be a it's tool set or software or something that kind of helps with the with the empathy circle practice I'm not quite sure what that would be I might actually have some ideas but this the idea of it's sort of a tool set in a sense we had a little bit assistive as we're recording this right we have technology that is recording the empathy circle so it's sort of like technology assisted empathy circle that we have here since we're in different parts of the world on top of it so we already have a little bit of a so there's an offer sorry yes there could there could be an opportunity for AI to augment at the empathy circle although you have yes my ideas but it's still let's say embryonic as to how that would work but it might be a layer on top of our technologically enhanced anyway because we already be doing video via remote empathy circles yeah I had talked with someone from Skype there was an engineer there he contacted me and he was interested in empathy and he was gonna start working on a project on it and then we just had a discussion about the empathy circle and he started coming up with all kinds of ideas he had like all kinds of you know software that I'm not familiar with but it has a lot of logic and and when I told him about feelings and needs as his part of the empathy circle process he got really excited because he saw a feedback loop that could be it if you have a feedback loop within within a process you can keep learning because you're you have something to test against and then so yeah and also yes if there were unable to tag for feelings and needs that could according to the sub-basement Microsoft guy or Skype guy helped to create a feedback loop so we would integrate learning directly into the process yeah and he had all kinds of off-the-shelf you know tool sets that could be brought to bear but then he you know he got pulled off on to another job and that kind of got dropped unfortunately I think that could have been really powerful I think that you know like Microsoft with Skype or you know zoom or Facebook they could be using this process like for what they're doing they have all kinds of conflict you know they're they're defunding people YouTube as well be monetizing them kicking them off their platforms it could be do their willingness to do an empathy circle could be part of the practice for conflict resolution so there's a huge amount of technology that could be brought into into these platforms you know using empathic listening then assisted tools right artificial intelligence technology tools to assist these dialogues so there's a an opportunity even within these video platforms to consider empathy circles as a one of the conduits for helping resolve some of the conflicts that we have for example D monetizing kicking people off YouTube because of something that they have said or shared and and we could use empathy circles to resolve those type of conflicts even within a zoom or a YouTube or Skype yeah like they could have they said of kicked off the guy from Infowars his name right now the you know he was kicked off of YouTube and what if they would have said well if you want to stay on our platform you have to do an empathy circle with the family members from Newtown who you're like you know really attacking or you know criticizing and saying that well maybe that's just all made up those shootings so there could have been something with sort of a mediation and there's all kinds of opportunities like that they could have it the political left is trying to be fun you know kick off the right and they're kritis you know they're doing stuff with YouTube saying oh these are terrible people kick them off they kick them off and then left right is all pissed off and there could have been something you know there could be this could be a mediation that they could sort of support between the sides right so in the case of the guy from info world being kicked off for presumably saying something negative to the people from Newtown for the shooting yeah maybe they could have proposed rather than kicking him off as a sort of unilateral decision come back and say listen if you'd like to stay on keep being monetized this is the price you have to pay and go do an empathy circle with the people you slagged off yeah alex jones for exact knows his names that's right all right so this about this a feedback loop that is again the work of marshall rosenberg's who was a grad student of power rogers that's why I just see Carl Rogers just set this you know foundational empathic listening is this foundational practice and it's gone in so many if you look at it's gone so many different directions have been built on this one kernel of the practice and Marshall Rosenberg insight was well there's these feelings just like Jean gentleman said but behind feelings like anger you know sadness there's feelings of that people are desiring if they're angry they're desiring respect or so the feeling of respect or something so it's it's kind of mapping out the territory of feeling the world of feelings right it's like there's how does how do these feelings relate to each other what's behind feelings and so that's that aspect so that that was another piece in terms of the feedback loop of the the needs that people have you know the desired feelings that they have some ways one throw that in I see you're interested in looking at the the ways we could create feedback loops and and how Rogers approached the therapy listening with Armstrong was more the learnings you can have outside of just the listening element and it was Marshall Rosenberg and nonviolent communication that was sort of he developed that practice yeah Rosenberg nonviolent communication Armstrong don't worry I got that one from the busyness in the mind but anyway the idea of being able to integrate feedback loops which could technology could help by the way of course in introduced into the empathy circles exactly I feel very heard thank you so I am excited by the idea of a layer of artificial oh yeah whom I speak Martin okay about the process getting natural on you so I am interested and excited by the idea of artificial intelligence being a layer on empathy circles as some or many people start talking about AI as augmenting intelligence or assisting our intelligence as opposed to being a autonomous intelligence so you're excited about the link between AI and empathy where AI comes in not as an autonomous force which is what a lot of people think of when they think of it but as an augmenting force so it it helps the process and I think it's worth mentioning the original ki was a machine with the name Eliza and in the 1960s Eliza was essentially a reef formulator so the original AI machine eliezer in the 60s was a reformulate er I don't know what a rimmed Allies I will I will explain so he Eliza was able to to reformulate what she heard from the person of course it was through text and it turned out that the people in the office where Eliza was invented wanted to spend hours with Eliza because fundamentally they felt more heard by her than their peers or their friends so Eliza back in that period would reformulate the whatever was put in by text and feed it back out again and the people who were working with Eliza actually felt more heard by Eliza than they did by their peers who have when they would feedback what they thought they said so Eliza gave an accurate reformulation of what the person has said it wasn't necessarily accurate for what they appreciated was the endless time that Eliza was prepared to do the listening per the issue of time efficiencies that we have today and the the infinite memory and the infinite time if you will of a computer does represent at the one hand a benefit and that the other hand a threat to our humanity if we don't realize that we should be more empathic as individuals so the facts and what they appreciated most was the fact that Eliza didn't have any time constraints they can sit and talk to Eliza for as long as they liked and Eliza wasn't going anywhere whereas a human in that situation might be keep looking at their watch and and want to be out of there so they'd appreciate at the time that Eliza was willing to spend with them yes so I also my final thought that I had brought to the table before the empathy circle about empathy circles so meta was doing it in person and my own experience to the date has been in the video format where technology sometimes gets in the way as we've experienced in this case yet I have done now three smaller sessions that are in front of people in in conferences where I have three people doing with in with not six minutes but one or two minutes empathy moments and and the experience of those individuals in just a few minutes inevitably illuminates lightbulbs in their minds and sparks tremendous reactions from the individuals in the room you've been you know within the technological world which is what we now and technology can get in the way sometimes at the communication that's happening so in the face-to-face empathy circles and you've been doing some of these in conferences with a two minute or so time schedule and and the reaction of the people who experience that and the reaction of the people in the room is is very dramatic it I'm not quite sure what the reaction is other than it's very dramatic well like learning it's the drama in the mind that might provoke the change the the notion of being in public is critical at this point because it renders hyper difficult your ability to stay presence focus on the individual knowing that you have 60 pairs of eyes for example looking at you and measuring every word and whether margin got it right or wrong and that pressure is a simulation of the busyness that we always feel somehow it's not similar it's sort of like a proxy for the busyness that we have I see so so within these contexts where if you are one of these people talking or reflecting you are very conscious of the fact that you have a whole audience they're watching you at the time and and that audience and that consciousness rather is a proxy for the normal thing that you would feel about trying to get stuff out and say things it really Hyper's your focus on to onto that feeling yes I I've been experimenting and thus would like you to say that one can gain kernels of what I'm trying to achieve which is awareness our inability to listen awareness of the interest in wanting to listen more in a fabricated environment such as having people do it in front of other people which by the way we're doing because this is gonna be retransmitted but you and I right now we don't feel like we have a million eyes on us but where are we to be on television doing this Paul right I would argue we would deep deep you know noodle noodling around all right right Wow wow that's I got a like I got so I got there my lack of ability to to listen and and exactly what you were saying I got so involved in in trying to experience being in that situation that I kind of lost the thread but what I got was that the being in front of the large audience of people well it said well it certainly heightened the experience and some in some way it just heightened the experience of being of saying and and oh I know what it was it was the ability to become conscious of your own inability to listen and to take you know take some kind of action towards improving that ability to listen it was that perfect yeah so my gig is you know finding ways for the reminisce we say in French carry on effect and and when you spark these kinds of ha moments this is a lightbulb moment the the learning moment where people observe the inability observe the errors of translation and say hmm maybe I should remember this in the future mm-hmm so I'm thinking more the listeners but perhaps also the practitioners in those situations it's like having a bright light Shawn on to their ability or lack thereof to hear what somebody else is saying and to reflect it back to them and and and I guess to think that that's an important thing to do I am feeling heard Martin okay okay good okay well I guess we're kind of running out there aren't we how many more we got here we had 20 minutes finance okay well I guess I'll keep going around the circle then and okay I you know I'm I'm not actually sure that I have a lot to say which is unusual for me this is it's quite an exciting conversation and I'd be certainly interested to see whether you know whether any of the ideas that have gone around here and how they would incorporate it into the empty circles I'm I you know I I think the empathy circle as it is right now as you call it a stage one you know first lesson is is valuable just the way it is but then when you move into some kind of functional application which is what mental is talk about you know we're where people are looking for some outcomes which is more kind of my territory then you know I can see that perhaps some new technology some new methods kind of that you can move to it might be might be quite useful okay so at first you didn't weren't sure what to talk about and kind of joking that that's something for you not to know to talk about but then you had some ideas that's really about sort of the that you feel like you and mentor want some sort of an outcomes from the empathy circle and how do you move from sort of this stage one to stage two and just sort of wondering if anything will come come out of it but then also valuing just the basic practice itself - yes and I think you know going around the basic practice I it's almost like you want to do a debrief I mean there was sometimes there is a little quick debrief and at the end of the empathy circles you have that last round you know what did you get out of this kind of around and and usually it's a field as in my experience it's kind of like a feel-good kind of put it to bed kind of round but I guess I haven't used an empathy circle in anger if you like you know I I haven't I haven't taken it to the frontlines with me other than there are elements there are elements of the obviously the the the close listening and the reflective listening that we use in in mediation but I haven't sort of sat to myself in a mediation said you know what this mediation is off the rails what we need to do is an empathy circle and here's how it works and let's go around and do this I haven't actually done that in an actual situation but it might be interesting to try and and just see how it works where you just kind of shift people I mean we often do the reflective thing listen what I want you to do is imagine being in the other person's shoes I mean we actually do you know and I want you to tell me what you think that they think of this situation what do you think they might think of the fact that you did that yeah and so we'll often do that kind of technique which is a little bit you know this kind of forcing them into an empathic position hmm so you're wondering like how it would work like an empathy is using an empathy circle in a real conflict with anger and you do sort of role taking you have you have the participants sort of like what would the other person what would you be feeling if you were the other person do you do that sort of role thinking but not sort of the empathic listening it sounds like yeah yeah I I haven't watched the whole video of the tent at the Berkeley of the Berkeley can fracas there that you did where you took the tent out and you had that leader of the right came in and and and I watched some little bits of it but I haven't watched the whole thing so is that something you would recommend that I watch the whole thing because there's some real nuggets in there yes you're just wondering like would that be a good example the right and the left talking at Berkeley it I'd be a good example of how to mediate a really contentious circle using yeah using empathise yeah right no I was I was looking for an answer okay so yeah you really would like an answer and you feel hurt okay then I'll speak back to you okay okay so the that's the the circle that you're talking about it only went for about 10-15 minutes and it was interrupted by an Tifa or the group do you they're a scream yelling and we couldn't even hear each other talk so it's not the best example of a successful empathy circle yet yeah it because it was interrupted and then we stood up and then those words like surrounded by media we ended up doing all these media you know discussions which took us off from the empty circle it is an example of what in an intense situation something it didn't didn't work totally well because it was so much screaming and yelling around the outskirts of people trying to shut it down right oh that's right you're talking to me yeah right I was listening to the answer to all my questions that you don't okay so you are answering the fact that that that example of the trying to introduce the empathy stoical into a very tense situation only lasted about 10 minutes in fact so I've actually probably did see most of it but it descended into screaming and shouting and by the participants but by outside people trying to shut it down they did not delay the political left did not want the dialogue to take place so they were screaming yelling we were talking to each other for me to just across with a megaphone to hear each other we are sharing a megaphone to speak to someone like three or four feet away because there was so much outside screaming and potential violence coming in so that wasn't the most effective you know an environment for holding you know empathy circle right so the participant participants themselves were were ready to go along with the new circle technology but the outside the political left in this case didn't want this to happen for whatever reason was attempting to interrupt shouting at very short distances with with a megaphone to Indiana and the participants were doing great it was like in easy it was actually quite easy because the participants were doing a really good job the next day we set up at UC Berkeley again with our empathy tent and the leader on the right he brought a friend of his and there's a recording of this and this friend of his is very well known in the right wing because he was one of the first to fight back against the antifa he's huge he was a fighter until he became a real hero on the right for you know standing up and fighting back and then the leader of the group brought him to the tent and said this guy needs an empathy circle so he sat down there's no nt4 there's no left we just grabbed somebody that was on the left we sat down and did a half an hour empathy circle it worked great I mean it was yeah it worked really well he's always nobody trying to shut it down it was just it was easy to mediate right right so the next so the next day the one of the right wing guys brought a lead at one of the right wings a leader the leader of the right wing group brought one of the members right a big guy a fighter I said this guy needs an empathy circle and you sat down with him and and had a successful firing yeah and the this guy his name was Kyle and there's an article written about it and as a video a bit too so I can say the link he started he started playing a little bit like he wasn't really reflecting and you know he was kind of making fun I said no you just reflect back what you hear the other person said he says oh this is serious so he took it serious I mean he really tried to you know take it seriously so in that context I find you know you're talking about the right if the right takes part they usually really like the practice they like the structure they like the effectiveness of it is just getting him into the circle but once they get into it they tend to be very supportive of it okay so the right the guy who came you know at first it was a little bit playful and just kind of like going along with the whole thing but you said no no you just reflect what you hear and and so he said oh okay this is serious and and he did that and then you go into it and your experience has been that the people on the right typically once they get into the process and understand how it goes actually do very well with it and like him well as a ton of other stuff I could say but I just see our time we only got 11 minutes left so maybe we'll stop here and we can just kind of open it up for sort of a 11 minutes debrief freestyle you know discussion anybody I felt that that little exchange that we had there was a couple of moments there where we kind of like were on the edge of of just dialogue as opposed black thing back and forth mostly because I wasn't wasn't really doing it very well but I felt hurt yeah okay yeah I'm really enjoying this I think we need three or four hours is our family four or five hours in our family and fifty circles yeah you're just kind of getting warmed up but just after a couple hours well that's amazing these two hours have gone by just like that I mean I did you know sometimes I think two hours yeah that's a big commitment you know two hours of time but that went very pretty quick and yeah I know it was a pleasure I think the objective was specific and that allowed for or you know we kept on track for the most part you know with baubles and and maybe in you necessary wobbles to move around and explore different areas and again it's interesting as you say Martin how quickly time can fly I'm totally in favor of empathy circles as a preliminary base as a way to explore and and democratize I'm more in Phase two land and so I that's that's where I come from this where I think about how to embed it in to business where you know 50 minute meetings already sometimes too long and there are just too many meetings as it is and and while if we spend more time thinking about strategy and being nice to each other there or these listening to another one could speed things along for sure to get it in the door you can't go in with a to our regular empathy circle so need to structure it differently as far as putting it into business concerned yet I think that you mentioned the half hour version Edwin and or maybe it was you Martin but we we can do shorter versions that could have interesting maybe spectacular effects maybe not quite as long-lasting just like meditation takes time to instill you're not gonna learn to be a guru of meditation by one 10 minute you know guided session so I thought I was right sorry yeah there's some years ago I did a course called corporate circles it's Maureen Fitzgerald she wrote a book called corporate circles and one of the lines that always stuck with me was if you're arranging a corporate meeting get there half an hour early and hide the table and so everybody is sitting around in chairs with no table in the middle completely changes the whole dynamic of the way that people relate in that situation [Music] let's go ahead we care the chairs that - you could although being Westerners we tend to sit in chairs it's really hard to in cross-legged on the floor you know if you have them just standing up definitely that's that's interesting I hadn't I hadn't thought of going that far normally I do i do do corporate circles and i do you know circles and many large group conflict situations and it's normally a little bit of the kind of the Talking Stick and and the celebratory object of some sort in the center of the circle and everybody sitting on chairs and round and it is a very powerful technique sure you know we could use that at Occupy Wall Street in the empathy tent that and it was I just found that people really wanted to speak more please get a big group here is limited in terms of you know how much time you have to speak so the idea is to break it up into really small groups so it could be a lot more active you know it can be a lot more active so that was there's another one called dynamic facilitation for large talkative groups which developed by a guy over here in Port Townsend in Washington State Jim rough and and that's when you you you set up four boards with recorders on them and they each have a different topic and thing they're recording and when you go into the room there's always somebody ready to burst you know they just one other that it out so you go to them first and so what you do is you follow the energy in the room and as that person talks you record everything they say on these four boards and you keep asking them how we got it have we got everything got all your points here and eventually they'll look and they'll say yeah yeah I think you got it off you suck them dry and then they sit down and shut up and you go to the next one and you work your way down through the energy levels until you get to the last guys and then you say John you didn't say much today why don't you got to say you know and you pull them in and say I know Rosa she's one of the he's doing that that's right I forgot about Rosa yeah so she's actually she and I have worked a lot with the empathy circles so and and she is now using empathy circles as a gateway practice into dynamic facilitation because it's that initial phase where people are just like dying to be heard yes and so by teaching everyone to do an empathy circle they're sort of Dino purging all that energy to begin with and they're also learning the empathic listening practice because in the dynamic facilitation she said she's actually called an empathic inquiry as well is that is that the facilitator is doing the reflection like it is an empathic listening but the facilitator reflects back what the speaker is saying make sure the speaker feels heard and then they put it into those categories so start giving form you know different buckets basically if you're using the sign and they start organizing the material you just keep going they she does like you know two-day workshops you know on this but now she's starting with empathy circles as uh as a first step because it kind of teaches everyone sort of practices that is another aspect in terms of artificial intelligence or you know augmenting tools is to start capturing what has been generated and giving it form like one of the problems were other solutions what is the data and so forth so it yeah would totally fit it's again the Gateway but again this empathic listening is the gateway to that whole practice so I close with one final thought which is a problem a friend someone who read my book says I really love your book and it's really great but I said well why didn't you have you ever have you ever done an empathic circle empathy circle and he said no I don't know what it is and and and my thought was well how do I get him to know about it without him doing it if you will with us to Shepherd him in and it just struck me the problem I'm voicing is it requires a shepherd somehow to bring them in like I would say a first trip on LSD and once you're in your I got it I know what it is I can do it but as far as propagate acing it would be lovely if I could just write out on my Twitter feed hey guys do an amputee circle on our problem but that won't fly you kind of need to have someone rushing them in and then they can fly by themselves yeah what's great though this is part of it of creating that introductory those little baby steps that's I've been working at then this circle is sort of helping to build those baby steps with trainings and make it really easy for people to do that first step so thanks for that that's definitely what I'd like to create today is there an Eliza today where for instance I can tell a story to my computer and then I can sit back and my computer reflects my story back to me and me formulated well the I would suggest trying to ones meet suku which is a they're both bots MIT s UK you and the second is whoa bot wo e bo T and they're both interesting experiments or opportunities to to converse so as conversational AI and they are more or less I mean they're more sophisticated than Eliza for sure Mitsu Kuh I'm actually gonna have my podcast soon the guy who created that Steve Wars ouack he gave the bot as some agency on top of that and it's won many years in a row the touring Alan Turing test or a reward so it's it's quite phenomenal and we'll bot is interesting because it has a sense of humor anyway try them out okay okay well we'll close then thank you very much very grateful for your participation I learn a lot and now look forward to connecting in the future keeping the ball rolling billing is everything |
Schedule 2019 > 07 July >